|
Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 14:04:57 GMT
Also known as 'the Which Is More Canon' thread. Despite the title, it has nothing whatsoever to do with boats.
So, this is the place to rave and argue and go into apoplexy over this one timeless question: which is more canon, CloudAeris, or CloudTifa?
Allow me to begin.
My vote, obviously, goes to CloudAeris. Look in the original game; Aeris is the most likely candidate for the date scene in the Gold Saucer. When Aeris first asks for his services in exchange for a date, Cloud readily agrees, whereas with Tifa there's no mention of anything romantic.
In AC, Cloud can't forgive himself for her death, and he can't get over her either- he's spend two whole years beating himself up over that, that's gotta be one deep love, people.
And in KH, they first put in Aeris, and Aeris alone. They would have had no trouble adding Tifa in, but they didn't; I think the reason she was in KHII (part of it, anyway) was because the CloTi fans screamed bloody murder at seeing Cloud with Aeris and Tifa nowhere in sight.
Also, as I have stated elsewhere, I simply think Aeris is more deserving of Cloud. She is the one who wants to help Cloud find his 'real self'- Tifa kinda shuts up and lets him keep on deluding himself. The only reason she's the one to help him find the 'real Cloud' is because Aeris is dead at that point; if that hadn't been so, I'm sure Aeris would've been the one to help him. She's the one that sacrifices everything to save the Planet, and she's the one that most deserves a happy ending. With Cloud.
So there you have it. Now feel fre to nod emphatically or tear at you hair, support and add to my argument or try to pick it apart.
Enjoy.
|
|
Samuraiter
Slum Dweller
What About Jessie?
Posts: 17
|
Post by Samuraiter on Oct 7, 2007 14:08:34 GMT
Original game canon? Cloud / Tifa. If Aerith had not been killed? Aerith / Cloud.
Ultimania Omega canon? Cloud / Nomura.
|
|
|
Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 14:09:48 GMT
Cloud/Nomura. Now that would be, er, interesting...
|
|
Samuraiter
Slum Dweller
What About Jessie?
Posts: 17
|
Post by Samuraiter on Oct 7, 2007 14:12:41 GMT
Cloud/Nomura. Now that would be, er, interesting... I kid, I kid. I think Ultimania Omega canon leans towards Aerith / Cloud. (I, myself, prefer Cloud / Jessie, but ... that is non-canon.)
|
|
|
Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 14:14:51 GMT
Ah, you started it. Note to self: don't suggest these threads while in the middle of writing an essay. I'd like to gather my thoughts at a later time, but for now I'll just comment on what you've said here. When Aeris first asks for his services in exchange for a date, Cloud readily agrees, whereas with Tifa there's no mention of anything romantic. Untrue. Yes, there are romantic hints with Aerith, such as the date thing, but there are also romantic hints with Tifa. The entire promise sequence screams, "Cliched romantic foreshadowing!" It even has a shooting star. Untrue. Read Case of Tifa. Cloud shows clear signs of wanting to move on, and it's only later on, particularly when he contracts Geostigma, that he starts retreating and dwelling on his guilt again. He's also beating himself up over Zack. Irrelevant. KH is AU. Can we please keep this to the FFVII Compilation? Also irrelevant. Your personal feelings on who deserves Cloud more have no bearing on which is actually more canon.
|
|
|
Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 14:18:53 GMT
In AC, he isn't just mourning Aerith, my dear, Sylla.
He occassionally takes flowers with him to visit Zack's Cliff, you know. Cloud's the strongest guy in the world but he think's he's a failure because he couldn't save Aerith, he got Zack killed, he couldn't tell Tifa how he felt and now he's got Geostigma- an incurable disease that he can't fight off.
That's right, my poor Cloud is one messed up little puppy. He cares very deeply for everyone in his life, he just seems to have an easier time saying it when they are dead.
*blinks* Err... Cloud talks to dead people- that sounds funny... Then again, I've never claimed him to be sane...
Long story short, I have always been and will always be fond of both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa. The only reason I lean toward Cloud/Tifa after AC is that Aerith is DEAD.
Aerith is gone from that life and I think if she ever really loved Cloud for himself and not what reminded her of Zack, then she would want him to move on with Tifa.
|
|
|
Post by fearandloathing on Oct 7, 2007 14:21:27 GMT
Cloud/Tifa because I like to think Aerith only hit on Cloud and did many things because of Zack (e.g. the falling through church roof and exchange for a date (reversed with Cloud) - she musta had serious deja vu)
|
|
|
Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 14:41:31 GMT
Oof! God forbid you ever do collect your thoughts, Pied, because I'm still reeling from you picking apart my argument. However... Untrue. Read Case of Tifa. Cloud shows clear signs of wanting to move on, and it's only later on, particularly when he contracts Geostigma, that he starts retreating and dwelling on his guilt again. He's also beating himself up over Zack. Case of... eh? Is ot one of the official mini-stories they released, like On the Way To a Smile? Irrelevant. KH is AU. Can we please keep this to the FFVII Compilation? True that KH is AU, but if contains the Clorith/Cloti argument all the same, and in addition I think that it's possible Squeenix used it as an outled for things they couldn't state in the actuall FFVII universe (for the obvious reasons that a) Aeris is dead, and b) they'd have hoards of Cloti fans howling for their blood if they did). Which meanse that, while KH is most decidedly AU, it's still germane to the topic at hand. Also irrelevant. Your personal feelings on who deserves Cloud more have no bearing on which is actually more canon. True, but it's nigh impossible to make a case for one pairing or the other without at some point saying, "Look at her! She's obviously more suited for Cloud!" I guarantee you this'll crop up again. The whole reason people think one pairing or the other is more canon is because of their personal feelings, Pied. Besides, where's the fun if we can't get swept away by what our personal opinions on the matter?
|
|
|
Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 14:59:21 GMT
I'm fond of both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa. The only reason I lean toward Cloud/Tifa after AC is that Aerith is DEAD. Aerith is gone from that life and I think if she ever really loved Cloud for himself and not what reminded her of Zack, then she would want him to move on with Tifa. I've said this numerous times on numerous threads and none of you Cloud/Aerith shippers are ever willing to argue with that point... If Aerith wants the man she supposedly loved to be miserable for the rest of his life without her, how can you say that she is more deserving of him?? Tifa WILLINGLY took a back seat to Aerith when it came to Cloud because she wanted him to be happy. Tifa said in Corneo's mansion that she wasn't Cloud's girlfriend, but I don't think she meant it that way, I still think Aerith caught her off guard with the question- after all, it was Tifa that reminded Cloud of their promise at the beginning of the game. Tifa did love him, but she was willing to let him be happy with Aerith. THAT to me, at least is the real scale for how you determine who is more deserving of whom in this case.
|
|
|
Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 15:00:59 GMT
Oof! God forbid you ever do collect your thoughts, Pied, because I'm still reeling from you picking apart my argument. I try my best. Yep, Case of Tifa - I'd advise you to read it (not that you'll enjoy it... it's a very badly written translation), since it sheds some light on what happens post-game and pre-AC. I agree that KH allows Square Enix to portray the Cloud/Aerith relationship in ways they couldn't with FFVII... but it's FFVII we're talking about here and what happened in the confines of the FFVII canon. That won't stop it from being an irrelevant argument. It is? Oops... I guess I'm just too analytical. XD
|
|
|
Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 15:35:50 GMT
Aerith is gone from that life and I think if she ever really loved Cloud for himself and not what reminded her of Zack, then she would want him to move on with Tifa. I've said this numerous times on numerous threads and none of you Cloud/Aerith shippers are ever willing to argue with that point... If Aerith wants the man she supposedly loved to be miserable for the rest of his life without her, how can you say that she is more deserving of him?? Tifa WILLINGLY took a back seat to Aerith when it came to Cloud because she wanted him to be happy. Tifa said in Corneo's mansion that she wasn't Cloud's girlfriend, but I don't think she meant it that way, I still think Aerith caught her off guard with the question- after all, it was Tifa that reminded Cloud of their promise at the beginning of the game. Tifa did love him, but she was willing to let him be happy with Aerith. THAT to me, at least is the real scale for how you determine who is more deserving of whom in this case. Because, y'know, god forbid she say it because it was actually true. When Tifa met Aeris I don't think there was a snowball's chance in hell she would have thought, "Oh, Cloud's met a random girl, I suppose this means I have to give up on my love for him to let him be happy with this girl who, as far as I know, he's never met until today and who I have no reason to think he loves." She might have done that later in the game, but not right when they first met. Besides, when Aeris asked that question (correct me if I'm wrong) she was basically still a stranger to Tifa, so Tifa wouldn't have any incentive to quietly step out and say, "No, he's all yours if you want him." Buuuut if you really want a die-hard Clorith fan to argue that point with you, I'll go through what you've said point by point. Sure, at first the attraction might have been because he reminded her of Zack, but in the date scene when she says she 'wants to know the real Cloud'- in my opinion, that suggests she really did love Cloud, and wanted to peel away the layers of his false identity to find the real him. So: She doesn't. In that scene in the 'white' flower field, she tells him "Isn't it time you did the forgiving?" She urges him to forgive himself and move on- never, not once, is there any indication she wants him to be miserable- that's just not something Aeris would ever do. And, um, the rest of your post I addressed above, so yeah. =)
|
|
|
Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 15:44:43 GMT
You are the one who said you are against Cloud being with Tifa, my dear. I said I like both of these pairings because Aerith is DEAD; she would want him to move on and be happy with someone that she knows loves Cloud as much as she did. That would be none other than Tifa.
|
|
|
Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 15:50:57 GMT
Yes, I've said (more than once, I believe) that I don't like Cloti. And I know you like both of them, don't get me wrong.
But you can't seriously belive, even for a minute, that Aeris would want to spend the rest of his life in agony over having let her die (which was what it seemed you were suggesting)? That's the point I was trying to make just then. (Well, among others- but I wasn't trying to way anything about you personally.)
Because shipping is war, second place is death. [/blatant quote yoinking] =P
|
|
|
Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 15:57:43 GMT
Heehee... If you only knew how squirrelly I get when I've been eating Berries and Cream Starbursts, Sylla, you'd be laughing your head off.
I didn't take it as an attack on me, my dear. I was just saying that by maintaining your Cloud/Aerith only postion post AC, you are by default condemning Cloud to loneliness forever, because Aerith is half of his heart and Tifa is the other...
|
|
|
Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 16:09:21 GMT
When Tifa met Aeris I don't think there was a snowball's chance in hell she would have thought, "Oh, Cloud's met a random girl, I suppose this means I have to give up on my love for him to let him be happy with this girl who, as far as I know, he's never met until today and who I have no reason to think he loves." She might have done that later in the game, but not right when they first met. You seem to have missed the context of this part of the game. Tifa was already shy about confessing her feelings to Cloud. She tries to give him a hint by reminding him of the promise, but she's also worried because Cloud is acting strangely... Then Cloud shows up with Aerith, and this is the first thing Aerith and Tifa say to each other: Look at what Aerith says here. She clearly implies that she's hooked up with Cloud before then saying that they've only just met. Anyway, Tifa obviously takes it as a sign that Aerith is a rival, and being rather shy about her feelings, tries to pretend that she isn't interested in Cloud. It's true that they're not together at this point, but it isn't true that Tifa doesn't have feelings for Cloud. Also, just a tiny bit later: Instant jealousy! Also, about Aerith wanting Cloud to move on. I agree with you on this, Sylla, but you seem to be avoiding the implication that Aerith may want Cloud to move on with Tifa. She basically says this in Maiden - can't remember the exact quote but it's something about giving Tifa her blessing.
|
|