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Post by La Editor on Feb 25, 2009 4:43:29 GMT
Uncle Kaj and Ra-ra pretty much sum it up, for me. <3 Oh, also: guys, it turns out that Barret was the intended 'date'! Both sides are incorrect - it says so in the ultimanias, I finally got to looking around and found a translation of a really, really small comment. I'm guessing most people probably missed it? It's... shocking, to say the least. It means that this argument is irrelevant both ways, anyhow. gamersguide.net/page/ultimanias/ff7date.html
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 25, 2009 4:49:44 GMT
Ha ha ha, the unspeakable (ultimanias) proved us all wrong. So in the end, we're foiled again. But because they're irrelevant to the argument... ZACK WINS! Nice investigation, La.
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Post by kajnrig on Feb 25, 2009 6:19:29 GMT
And Cloud would fight, not like Zack, but probably to the same magnitude because he also went through the mako/jenova cell experiment during the holds in the ShinRa Mansion. So I don't think it's the "same way" of fighting but the power of it. To the same magnitude? I find that hard to believe. No matter how much "effort" or "soul" put into fighting, you're still not good if you don't know how to maneuver your body and stuff. Cloud could've gotten the same strength and agility and stuff as Zack from those experiments, but that doesn't explain how he's so good with the sword. It'd take years to learn how to fight effectively, especially if you're twirling around a sword as large as you are. ...which is why I say he gets that from Zack. The whole two-sword deal, I can see as him starting to branch away, but still... the core of his fighting style seems like it'd be based on Zack, which again begs the question of how much Zack is in Cloud. Tifa and Cloud share everything cannon that continues in all other FF titles - they share the promise. Zack shares the promise with Aeris. I'd say that is the single most important point of the shipping question. It is obvious cannon in FF9 and 8, you take what makes those cannon and connect the same standards to FF7. What was the promise in FFIX? Shame on me, since I just got through playing it, but what was the promise? As far as I can see, the biggest promise was Zidane's oath to steal Garnet... yay? Evil, evil, evil little girl.
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 25, 2009 6:30:35 GMT
Really the only time we see Cloud fight is in Advent Children, years after Final Fantasy Seven, which would give him enough time to really gather a skill over the blade. I say that, because during FF7, we control the blonde candy-corn in a hopscotch motion battle - not in a movie format. I'm wording this poorly and trying to express something that really has no use on the argument. But I'll try again: We have no real way of knowing how good at fighting Cloud is during Seven, we can make assumptions that because Barret would have wanted to hire Cloud again, especially since he'd be taking out of Marlene's "schoolin" - he must be worth something. But we never got to experience plain and simple bad ass graphic power of fighting till AC - when he could have finally figured how. He could have been horrid for all we really could have known. But none of that really matters, because even if I don't believe that Cloud's fighting ability has anything to do with Zack - I still believe there are tons of projections of the dark haired hero then that. And that the importance of those projections is what should be looked at (as you suggested), so by this point I'm just listening to myself talk. As for the promise in nine... I actually have no idea now that I stop and think about it - it wasn't my favorite title of the series (in fact, really the opposite) - but the promise appears in every final fantasy (like the summons), and I think we can all agree that it signals cannon pairings because it happens between those characters.
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Post by T. Costa on Feb 25, 2009 6:30:52 GMT
Why did I click? I know not to trust anything on a tinyurl link anymore....
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 25, 2009 6:46:09 GMT
It was brilliant. Took my idea though - sneaking in on another link.
She's clever, and she reads minds.
And now she has the title of violating the Shipping Thread.
Watch out world.
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Post by kajnrig on Feb 25, 2009 16:33:43 GMT
We have no real way of knowing how good at fighting Cloud is during Seven, we can make assumptions that because Barret would have wanted to hire Cloud again, especially since he'd be taking out of Marlene's "schoolin" - he must be worth something. I dunno about that. I figure it's fairly easy to tell at least SOMETHING about how he fights in VII, even if it's not all hyperkinetic like it is in Advent Children. For instance, it's obvious that he uses one sword. It's obvious that he's GOOD with that one sword because, y'know, he takes down a multi-billion dollar corporation with it (figuratively, of course), AND he saves the world with it, AND he can pull it out of subspace. Even the Jedi had to have a handle. My point being that one can't realistically look at him in FFVII and say that he was a poor fighter. Which again leads me to the point of saying that the only way he could've gotten so good with it was by imitating Zack, and the entire way he fights is predicated on Zack, so even by Advent Children's time, his entire moveset - as if this were a Soul Calibur or something - is based on Zack's, at least to a point. (This also makes the Cloud/Zack character swap in Ergheiz feel very, very ominous... but that's just me.) As for the promise in nine... I actually have no idea now that I stop and think about it - it wasn't my favorite title of the series (in fact, really the opposite) - but the promise appears in every final fantasy (like the summons), and I think we can all agree that it signals cannon pairings because it happens between those characters. 1.) I've said this before, I know, but if you hate Final Fantasy IX, you hate Final Fantasy. 2.) If the promise is a sign of canonicity, then in FFIX - the FF you so erringly dislike - the canon pairing wouldn't necessarily be Zidane and Garnet, but Garnet and Steiner. After all, Steiner constantly makes reference to his sworn duty (aka promise) to protect and watch over Garnet. ...y'know, just sayin'. Not that what you said doesn't have merit. It's just... y'know.
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Post by Woodster on Feb 25, 2009 16:42:14 GMT
@ La: Thank you! @ Kaj, Clan: Thats an interesting concept, and probably one that can be explored in its own thread. Sorry guys, but this threads in now being locked. Its safe to say that this topic has been sufficiently explored and to keep this thread open now will just be counter productive.
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