Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Oct 8, 2007 6:22:28 GMT
In Aerith's Defense! Sweet I'll play both sides!
Cait Sith. Yes, I shall now call to the stand that mechanical, who really cares about him?, Cat. Upon first meeting Cait can we all recall the fortune he made in Gold Saucer? I think it was something along the lines of: "You will find what you desire but lose something valuable in the process" Now of course this came after a fortune probably telling you that Thursday was your lucky day but still. We all know this fortune came true. Cloud caught up to Sephiroth but lost Aeris to his wrath. But that's not the point just yet. Cait makes another fortune around the time of the Temple of the Ancients. I can't remember the exact wording. But it was something about you was perfect for Cloud and the first thing Cait said was: "poor Tifa" before informing us that Aeris was the perfect one. Now this was put directly into the game by the creators. Why else would they have this scene at all? It played no real relevance other then to move the sub-plot of the love triangle around Tifa, Cloud and Aeris. It was a blatant direct saying of "Aeris/Cloud" pairing.
AND! ... ... ...
I got nothing else. ;D
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 8, 2007 8:17:48 GMT
Cait makes another fortune around the time of the Temple of the Ancients. I can't remember the exact wording. But it was something about you was perfect for Cloud and the first thing Cait said was: "poor Tifa" before informing us that Aeris was the perfect one. Indeed. Now why did the creators put this in the game? Here's one explanation, which I think is the most likely. It's tragic irony. Cait Sith predicts that Cloud and Aerith will have a wonderful future together... but it doesn't happen. He's completely, tragically wrong. (He's wrong about almost all of the predictions he makes, so this isn't completely out of the blue.) This makes Aerith's death even more of a shock because the game is setting you up to believe that Cloud and Aerith will get together by the end in traditional RPG style. The game is deceptive - and deliberately so.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 8, 2007 20:11:53 GMT
You can choose in the very beginning of the game to say something like "sleeping next to you? Who wouldn't" as a quote to Tifa asking if you slept well. How's that not romantic, if not sexual? ;D True- though I'm not sure that should count, as the answer Cloud ives depends on what the player themself wants him to say; and Pied's constantly saying personal feelings are irrelevant to the argument, so. It is not just Aeris that haunts Cloud. No where close. True Aeris is a huge part of it but it's not really the fact that he loved her and she's gone, but that he let her die. That he wasn't strong enough to save her. Yes, which is what I've been saying. The fact that he wasn't strong enough to save her haunts him. (But I won't repeat my argument again here.) Next. In the book that comes in the AC collectors edition, the novel of AC, it talks about Tifa's pain. Being guilty for the miscalculation in a reactor bomb and killing a lot of innocent people. How this haunts her. How can we be so redundant to say Cloud's pain is souly for Aeris when all these other sins surround him? The whole AC novel is about how each character has so much to atone for. I don't think that should ever be overlooked. Of course his pain isn't solely for Aeris- but Cloud's pain isn't Tifa's pain and Tifa's pain about the bomb isn't relevant to this argument. Besides, it is implied in KH2 more a Leon/Aerith. This is seen in the ending when Aeris gives a card to Leon. Besides their relationship is much more apparent then Cloud/Aerith's in the whole game. But is it ever proven that it's Aeris that gives him the card? All I saw was that, well, Leon gets a card. This is a weak basis for saying Aeris/Leon is more apparent in KH than Cloud/Aeris, as they get about half a minute of actual interaction in the game. Okay there is one HUGE problem with the whole "real cloud" problem that people seem to over look. Aeris never went about trying to find the real Cloud. To her, Cloud reminded her of Zack. She says this point blank in the very beginning. Wrong. Aeris does talk about finding the real Cloud: in that scene in the Glod Saucer. She says, and I quote, "Cloud... I'm searching for you. [...] I want to meet you." By 'you' she obviously means the 'real Cloud'. So how is that 'not going about trying to find the real Cloud'? Thus the whole "finding" himself with Tifa. Tifa did not just "shut up and let him be". She literally dove into Mako to save his sorry ass. As I've said before, that's because Aeris wasn't around at the time. If she hadn't been dead, she almost certainly would've been the one to help Cloud, as she was the ONLY one who talked about finding the real Cloud. (At least until Tifa was forced to in order to get him back.) No doubt Aeris is a huge part of FF7 and everything we love about it but to say that she "sacrifices everything". That is implying that she "sacrificed" her life for holy right? It was reported by the FF Staff themselves, if you'd really like I could go find the article and get the name directly, it may be Tetsuya himself, that Aeris did NOT know she was going to die. She knew there would be great danger, but she did not expect to die. Which does nothing to change the fact that in the end she sacrificed everything she had for the Planet. So tell me how not knowing she was going to die lessens her worthiness. Also: Cait makes another fortune around the time of the Temple of the Ancients. I can't remember the exact wording. But it was something about you was perfect for Cloud and the first thing Cait said was: "poor Tifa" before informing us that Aeris was the perfect one. Indeed. Now why did the creators put this in the game? Here's one explanation, which I think is the most likely. It's tragic irony. Cait Sith predicts that Cloud and Aerith will have a wonderful future together... but it doesn't happen. Indeed, but... heh, Cait Sith says Cloud and Aeris are 'perfect for each other'. I never even remembered that; but at the time I recall thinking that was a good argument for Clorith. Heh, if you can accept both Clorith and Cloti, more power to you, Clan Dragoon! ;D
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 8, 2007 21:19:03 GMT
Wrong. Aeris does talk about finding the real Cloud: in that scene in the Glod Saucer. She says, and I quote, "Cloud... I'm searching for you. [...] I want to meet you." By 'you' she obviously means the 'real Cloud'. So how is that 'not going about trying to find the real Cloud'? I agree that this is what Aerith means when she says that to Cloud. What's so sad about it is that she never does get to find the real Cloud. Very soon after this, Aerith dies. We could speculate about what might have happened had Aerith known the real Cloud, but that's not what happens. Ultimately, it's Tifa who brings Cloud back to himself and she's the one who knows him as he really is. Well, I suppose that depends what you mean by a good argument for Clorith. I think Cait Sith is right that Cloud and Aerith would have made a great couple and this quote clearly wants the player to believe that... but it doesn't do any more than fuel an anticipation which is ultimately unfulfilled. Aerith's star is extinguished, so we never get to find out if they really would have been a perfect couple. The Cloud/Aerith pairing is a lot about speculation... it's mostly 'could have beens' and 'might have beens'. Actually, it would be helpful if you could say what your view is on the whole Cloud/Aerith relationship. Do you believe that a) Cloud and Aerith were ever a couple? b) Cloud and Aerith are the true intended pairing of FFVII? c) Cloud loved and still loves Aerith, and no one else? d) that Cloud loved Aerith but later rediscovers his feelings for Tifa and moves on with her? You might find that we agree more than you think. It's not the pro Cloud/Aerith that particularly bothers me about staunch Cloud/Aerith shippers... rather, it's the anti Cloud/Tifa. I don't understand why people claim that Cloud/Aerith is canon to the exclusion of all other pairings. If you tell me that Cloud was falling for Aerith in the first disc, then I'll readily agree, but if you think that he didn't fall for Tifa afterwards, then that's where I'll disagree. So I'd like to know where exactly you stand on the Cloud/Tifa relationship too.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 9, 2007 14:51:31 GMT
Well, I suppose that depends what you mean by a good argument for Clorith. I think Cait Sith is right that Cloud and Aerith would have made a great couple and this quote clearly wants the player to believe that... but it doesn't do any more than fuel an anticipation which is ultimately unfulfilled. Aerith's star is extinguished, so we never get to find out if they really would have been a perfect couple. The Cloud/Aerith pairing is a lot about speculation... it's mostly 'could have beens' and 'might have beens'. A good argument for Clorith in that it's explicitly stated in-game that they are perfect for each other. (And "Poor Tifa".) So I guess the whole thing would suggest that Aeris is better suited to Cloud than Tifa is. (Which makes me happy enough.) Actually, it would be helpful if you could say what your view is on the whole Cloud/Aerith relationship. Do you believe that a) Cloud and Aerith were ever a couple? Wellm they went on a date. =P I personally kinda saw their relationship near the end of disc 1 as the kind of grey area people have just before they launch into a full relationship. SO, couple-couple? Not quite, but I think they would have if Aeris has survived. b) Cloud and Aerith are the true intended pairing of FFVII? Yes. When I first started FFVII I think I kind of instinctively saw it; to me it just rang true more than Cloud/Tifa. (Of course, since then I've added actual reasons to my argument.) c) Cloud loved and still loves Aerith, and no one else? No, it was officially stated that "Cloud cares for both of them very deeply." I think that he can't get over Aeris (and her death and his weakness, etc, etc). Or, alternatively, maybe he never saw Tifa that way. Just a thought. d) that Cloud loved Aerith but later rediscovers his feelings for Tifa and moves on with her? Not having read A Case of Tifa and only having FFVII/AC to go by- no, I don't think he moves on with Tifa. You might find that we agree more than you think. It's not the pro Cloud/Aerith that particularly bothers me about staunch Cloud/Aerith shippers... rather, it's the anti Cloud/Tifa. I don't understand why people claim that Cloud/Aerith is canon to the exclusion of all other pairings. No, it's not canon to the exclusion of Cloti (I'm not that wrapped up in my own Clorith world. =P) But I think it's the sweeter of the two, and as I said above, it rings truer to me. And those little signs in FFVII, like the fact that Aeris is the default choice for the date scene if the player is impartial. If you tell me that Cloud was falling for Aerith in the first disc, then I'll readily agree, but if you think that he didn't fall for Tifa afterwards, then that's where I'll disagree. So I'd like to know where exactly you stand on the Cloud/Tifa relationship too. He had developed a childhood crush sometime in the past for her, so there were feelings there- but I don't think that, once Aeris died, he immediately fell for Tifa because, oh, now Aeris wasn't in the way. (In fact, I think it's pretty implausible that he'd do anything with Tifa for even the remainder of the game: the pain of Aeris death and his guilt would be too raw for him to make any kind of hypothetical move.) What goes after that... well, obviously I don't think he goes off with Tifa. =P So, summarizing, I'm not the most rabid anti-Cloti person out there, I know there was something there at least when they were kids- I just don't see it working out. (Of course, since this would betray my own Clorith sentiments.) I'm VERY pro-Clorith, and when I find Cloti, it's just... eh, moving on.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 9, 2007 16:58:19 GMT
Wellm they went on a date. =P I personally kinda saw their relationship near the end of disc 1 as the kind of grey area people have just before they launch into a full relationship. SO, couple-couple? Not quite, but I think they would have if Aeris has survived. Hmm, I'm not sure about that; it's very much up to interpretation. Personally, I thought that Cloud was beginning to fall in love with Aerith near the end of disc 1, but she died before they ever really got the chance to get together properly. So I don't think they were ever a couple either, but I think you lean more towards them being an almost couple than I do. XD On true intended pairings... I disagree on this. I don't think there is any one pairing you can say is the 'true' one. It's my opinion that FFVII starts off more pro Cloud/Aerith but then leans towards Cloud/Tifa. Okay, so you acknowledge that Cloud cared for both girls - so he has feelings for Tifa, but you don't think he moves on with her? So I think your position is that he just can't get over Aerith, despite his feelings for Tifa? I don't think this either. XD I guess it's time I actually presented a positive argument, instead of just countering yours. So here goes. Obviously, Cloud doesn't immediately fall for Tifa as soon as Aerith kicks the bucket. Firstly, because of his grief; secondly, because of his determination to beat Sephiroth (almost straight after she dies, he's once again obsessed with revenge); and thirdly because he's a complete headcase. Cloud literally loses his mind the next time he encounters Sephiroth and then he ends up a gibbering wreck in a wheelchair due to Mako poisoning. There's no ideal time for Cloud to be thinking about romance here. XD So, the pivotal scene takes place a bit later... when Tifa helps Cloud to patch together his identity in the Lifestream. It's at this point that Cloud rediscovers his buried feelings for Tifa. He was infatuated with her - so infatuated, that she's the reason he wants to join SOLDIER. And in Nibelheim he's so embarrassed that he hasn't achieved what he wanted to, that he can't face her. But then the poor guy gets experimented on and creates a new identity based on Zack, so those feelings end up buried because they're all tied up with his true self - the self that failed. The reason I'm explaining all this is because I've heard anti Cloud/Tifa shippers saying that Cloud simply had a childhood crush and that doesn't mean he has any feelings for her in adulthood. I want to point out that there was no time in between Cloud going to Nibelheim (when he still had strong feelings for Tifa) and the Lifestream scene, during which Cloud was actually his real self. So when all those buried memories come back, so do his feelings for Tifa. To support my point, this is what kid Cloud says when Tifa tells him how much she thought about Cloud: Aw. Also, I think it's very telling that when Cloud finally gets himself patched together, this is what he says: Here, Cloud acknowledges that he wasn't really himself through the entire game up to this point. But now he knows who he is - and, importantly for the Cloud/Tifa relationship - he remembers those long buried feelings for Tifa. Anyway, our team of heroes are still on their mission to save the world so there isn't really time for Cloud and Tifa to deal with their newly rediscovered feelings for each other. I think the only time we see them alone together in the game (when they're not in mortal danger) is the Highwind scene. I don't know about anybody else, but this scene is extremely suggestive. Cloud and Tifa spend the night in each other's arms. How sweet. In fact, the game also hints that they actually slept together - the way the camera pans upwards is a classic cinematic device. It's the fade to black like you see in a lot of stories. And Tifa's embarrassment when she finds the other members of AVALANCHE is hilarious. And then she runs off into a corner. Priceless. XD What's also significant about the Highwind scene is that it's the last peaceful time before Cloud and co go off to defeat Sephiroth. Aw. Anyway, for me this really sealed the Cloud/Tifa relationship. They don't even know if they're going to survive the next day, but they know they won't be facing Sephiroth alone. Of course, it turns out that they do survive. The game basically leaves you hanging, but to me it seems quite logical that after that Cloud and Tifa would get together properly. I think this post is long enough as it is, so I'll leave it there for now.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 9, 2007 17:56:38 GMT
I disagree on this. I don't think there is any one pairing you can say is the 'true' one. It's my opinion that FFVII starts off more pro Cloud/Aerith but then leans towards Cloud/Tifa. ...You disagree that to me Clorith rang more true than Cloti? Good luck with that. =P But, being serious now, IF FFVII became more pro Cloti further on, it was because it didn't have a choice; Aeris was DEAD. Okay, so you acknowledge that Cloud cared for both girls - so he has feelings for Tifa, but you don't think he moves on with her? So I think your position is that he just can't get over Aerith, despite his feelings for Tifa? Yes. The reason I'm explaining all this is because I've heard anti Cloud/Tifa shippers saying that Cloud simply had a childhood crush and that doesn't mean he has any feelings for her in adulthood. Well, I actually think it's possible those feelings were buried so long that they faded (especially in the face of what was happening with Aeris). Because really, childhood crushes almost never survive, let alone the people actually getting together. They almost always die out; so the fact that he had a childhood crush really isn't that great of an indication. He was infatuated with her - so infatuated, that she's the reason he wants to join SOLDIER. Wasn't it to "be the best there is, like Sephiroth"? To support my point, this is what kid Cloud says when Tifa tells him how much she thought about Cloud: Tifa's a dear friend, Of course he'd be happy, even if he wasn't in love with her. Anyway, our team of heroes are still on their mission to save the world so there isn't really time for Cloud and Tifa to deal with their newly rediscovered feelings for each other. I think the only time we see them alone together in the game (when they're not in mortal danger) is the Highwind scene. Yeah, the Highwind scene is suggestive, though I know there's a huge portion of 'suggestiveness' that only appears if the player is very affectionate towards Tifa; you have to work hard and do a lot of manipulating to get it. The game basically leaves you hanging, but to me it seems quite logical that after that Cloud and Tifa would get together properly. Only for Cloti supporters, methinks.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 9, 2007 18:39:02 GMT
...You disagree that to me Clorith rang more true than Cloti? Good luck with that. =P That's not what I meant. I meant that I disagree that Cloud/Aerith is actually the sole intended 'true' pairing of FFVII. I just don't think that's how the game is. Well, sure, that's part of the reason, but I don't think it's the only reason. Like I said before, FFVII is deceptive. Everything you think you know about Cloud, the hero, is turned upside down. In the first disc, you expect that Cloud and Aerith will eventually get together because they're the stereotypical hero and heroine. The game encourages this. But then Aerith dies and it turns out that Cloud wasn't really himself for half of the game. The real Cloud is the shy, weak failure who loves Tifa. What I'm saying is that it isn't just that Aerith dies, but that Cloud himself changes. My point was that there wasn't time for these feelings to fade away. In the years that Cloud forgot his true self, he also forgot his feelings for Tifa, or at least the true extent of them. He can't get over an infatuation he doesn't know he has. But in the Lifestream those feelings come to the fore again. This isn't an old crush that he no longer has. This is a crush that he has forgotten but which returns in the Lifestream when he remembers how everything really happened. I think it helps to look at this scene in context too. The Highwind scene doesn't make a great deal of sense if you think that Cloud has gotten over his love for Tifa. He'd be happy to know she has a crush on him if he doesn't return the sentiment? Yes, he wanted to be the best like Sephiroth in order to impress Tifa. Cloud says this explicitly; I don't think it's a point of contention. No, I don't think you do. I think if you play the game pretty impartially, you end up getting the Aerith date and the 'high affection' Highwind scene. So the high affection scene is default like the Aerith date is default. I don't think the two versions are that different though. Interestingly, in the high affection one, Tifa says, "You were watching?" and in the low affection one she says, "You were listening?" Which implies even more that something extra was going on in the high affection scene. XD Well, that's not what I'm trying to argue. I'm saying that if you look at the game objectively, it is the most logical conclusion.
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Alma
Materia Dealer
Look at me still talking when there's science to do!
Posts: 74
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Post by Alma on Oct 9, 2007 19:03:19 GMT
I just wanted to add that the Gold Saucer date scene can occur with Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or even Barret, depending on how the player reacts in the game. The first time I played, I got the date with Tifa and she does say the same thing Aerith does - that she's looking for the real Cloud. At that time, I didn't know that the date scenes could change, so I was pretty shocked when I got Aerith the second time through. Yet both times, the Highwind scene remained the same. (Ok, I'm an obsessive freak and have played the game many many times... yes, laugh at me). To me, this implied that since the date scene can change (Yuffie actually kisses Cloud during their date), it's nothing concrete. All of the characters care about him.
All the times I played through the game, however, the Highwind scene was never removed (and I tried picking all different dialogue options/combinations). True, I don't understand the literal affection points allocated during the game, but it seems to me that it's a lot easier to rotate the characters in the Gold Saucer date scene than to change/remove the Highwind scene with Tifa. What that implies is up to you to decide.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 9, 2007 19:13:44 GMT
You can't remove the Highwind scene. There are just two slightly different versions of it. One is suggestive and the other is very suggestive. XD Either way, Cloud and Tifa still spend the night together.
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Alma
Materia Dealer
Look at me still talking when there's science to do!
Posts: 74
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Post by Alma on Oct 9, 2007 19:16:25 GMT
Either way, Cloud and Tifa still spend the night together. Woohoo! ;D
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Oct 10, 2007 0:36:12 GMT
You can't remove the Highwind scene. There are just two slightly different versions of it. One is suggestive and the other is very suggestive. XD Either way, Cloud and Tifa still spend the night together. WAIT! There are different versions of that scene?
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Oct 10, 2007 15:44:22 GMT
Yeah, what the hell!?!?!?! Does it dfepend on how you treat Tifa? I treat her like crap the whole game. I want Barett. Cloud has his love muscle set on the hunk.
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Post by leafonthebreeze on Oct 10, 2007 17:57:11 GMT
I treat Aerith like crap the whole game, because it's more funny ;D Do you remember me? Yeah I remember you... you're the slum drunk
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Oct 10, 2007 18:22:28 GMT
LMAO!!!
*Vision of drunk Aeris creeps into mind*
Ooooh.... The possibilities...
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