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Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 16:29:42 GMT
Well, by saying Aeris wants Cloud to move on, one implies that it would be with Tifa (unless Aeris secretly meant Yuffie or something. =P) That doesn't mean I have to like it, or go shouting it from the rooftops. I'm not avoiding it per se, but I'm not about to go to great lengths to point it out. Also, Pied, Aeris doesn't specifically insinuate that she's hooked up with Cloud before; all she says is that 'Cloud's told me a lot about you.' Which, if I recall correctly, is true. And when she says 'Right. With Cloud.' This, again, is true. She was in the park with Cloud. What, is she supposed to say no it wasn't her, she must be mistaken? By the way, I read somewhere that Maiden has also been ruled AU, so if you want us to keep to what's strictly canon, then that's also inadmissible. And I never said Tifa didn't have feelings for Cloud; where did you read that? Of course she has feelings for him- otherwise one of the main sub-plots of the game would just be... not there. (Although, that'd be an interesting idea for a fanfic. Everyone that likes Clorith portrays Cloud as not liking Tifa that way, but what if it was Tifa's love that was nothing more than sisterly?) And where are all the Clorith supporters anyway? Dahhak and Daze and Clorith14? I could use a little help fending off the conerted efforts of the Cloti mob, here.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 16:45:42 GMT
Well, by saying Aeris wants Cloud to move on, one implies that it would be with Tifa. Fair enough; at least you admit it. XD You could just take her statements at face value, but I really don't think that's how they're meant to be read. If Aerith isn't insinuating anything by saying she's with Cloud, then I think Tifa misinterprets her too. Why would Aerith then go on to say that they've only just met if she didn't realise how Tifa had taken her statement? I wasn't aware of this - if you could provide a link confirming this, then I'll go ahead and ignore Maiden. I know you didn't; I was just pointing out how Tifa tries to hide her feelings. I thought you implied before that Tifa had no reason to hide her feelings after just meeting Aerith, so I used quotes to show why she did that.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 17:09:42 GMT
Come on, the insinuation that Aerith wants Cloud and regards Tifa as an obsticle is absurdly obvious.
Aerith is a flirt now- call it a little something she picked up from a certain dark haired bishi with a scar that dissapeared five years ago...
Lets not forget within two minutes of meeting Cloud she asked him to protect her in exchange for a date- Aerith wants him. No matter how Tifa answers these questions Aerith is clearly making no effort at all to disguise her interest or to avoid making Tifa jealous. She wants Tifa out of the equation- immediately, and by backing tifa who is a complete stranger to her into a corner like that she got exactly what she wanted.
Do you think that Cloud didn't hear Tifa say that they were just friends?? He was right there the whole time- and since he's dressed up like a girl for no other reason than to protect Tifa, how do you think that made Cloud feel to hear that?? It had to hurt- probably more than any of us will ever know since Cloud isn't likely to bring it up at a christmas party...
Aerith did that on purpose. She knew why Cloud was in that dress because she talked him into wearing it and she also knew that their reason for being there was to save Tifa. Aerith isn't the sweet little thing most people think, She set Tifa up to hurt Cloud right there and she did it deliberately. Perhaps it wasn't maliciously, but it wasn't an accident.
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Post by fearandloathing on Oct 7, 2007 17:24:47 GMT
It's of my opinion that Aeris asked Cloud for a date in some sort of bizzare tribute to 'scarred bishi', the similarities are quite obvious.
1. SOLIDER- guy falls though roof of her church, he = a blond version of Zack (DEJA VU!)
2. Zack asked her for a date straight up, I think she just couldn't resist pulling the same trick.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 17:43:56 GMT
Come on, the insinuation that Aerith wants Cloud and regards Tifa as an obsticle is absurdly obvious. She wants Tifa out of the equation- immediately, and by backing tifa who is a complete stranger to her into a corner like that she got exactly what she wanted. Aerith did that on purpose. She knew why Cloud was in that dress because she talked him into wearing it and she also knew that their reason for being there was to save Tifa. Aerith isn't the sweet little thing most people think, She set Tifa up to hurt Cloud right there and she did it deliberately. Perhaps it wasn't maliciously, but it wasn't an accident. Now, I think that's reading a little too far into it. Aeris had listened to Cloud talk about Tifa, true- but she and Cloud had just met, so I think Aeris wouldn't immediately decide, "He's mine, out of the way b'itch!" First of all, that's not how relationships work in almost all cases, and I don't think this was an exception. Sure, the attraction was there, but I don't see Aeris deliberately backing Tifa into a corner like that just to get Cloud. I admit she's not a saint, but there's a difference between not being a saint and just being a flat-out b'itch, which is what that would have been, Val. Setting Tifa up specifically to hurt Cloud is another thing that Aeris wouldn't do, IMO. If Aeris had really deliberately pulled a move like that on Tifa, do you really think they would have ended up as friends? Because I, for one, think Tifa's smart enough to know when someone's twisted her words and led her into making a mistake. Fear, I agree with ya, that sounds like the most likely reason. =) Edit: This off Wikipedia! "In early planning stages of Final Fantasy VII, Aeris was to be one of only three protagonists. [...] Nomura stated in a 2005 EGM interview: "Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barrett... [sic] well, that's maybe too obvious"."So the original protagonists were meant to be Cloud, Aeris and Barret! Like what happened again in Kingdom Hearts, Tifa is... well, an afterthought. Not to put too fine a point on it. Taking this into consideration, it'd be obvious that Clorith was the original, intended canon couple. I guess someone at Square said, "Hey, know what would be cool? Let's add another girl and do a love triangle!" Edit2: Pied, I'll look for where I read that, but could you give me the full title? I can't remember it. ^^"
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 17:59:13 GMT
Yep, but then again, I have such mixed feelings about that whole scene from the game that I think it'd be a good idea for me to put down the starbursts, and left this thread for a while.
When I played that scene the very first time I thought Aerith was being a B*tch, Sylla. It took me ages to decide that I like Aerith at all after the way she was clearly trying to get to the bottom of what was between Cloud and Tifa, when it wasn't her business after just meeting BOTH of them, really... Because of that, it took me even longer to decide that I do see some nice things in a possible romance between Cloud and Aerith.
Other people have dissagreed with me too, Sylla dear, I just don't like that scene, because I feel so sorry for Cloud in it...
I can't remember a single other game off the top of my head that goes to such absurd lengths to embarrass it's hero while he is still supposed to be cool...
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 18:07:35 GMT
So the original protagonists were meant to be Cloud, Aeris and Barret! I've heard this before. I've also heard that Sephiroth was originally related to Aerith. But you know what? I wouldn't use that as an argument against Sephiroth/Aerith fans because that's not how the game ended up. It's irrelevant. I think it's called Maiden who travels the Planet.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 19:18:21 GMT
So the original protagonists were meant to be Cloud, Aeris and Barret! I've heard this before. I've also heard that Sephiroth was originally related to Aerith. But you know what? I wouldn't use that as an argument against Sephiroth/Aerith fans because that's not how the game ended up. It's irrelevant. Where have you heard that? If you show me a citation then I'll believe it, but in any event I feel that's slightly different, because Aeriseph is BLATANTLY non-canon. My point is that originally I think the pairing was to be Clorith. Whether that makes it more valid... well, that's up for debate. Obviously I think so. I mean, sure, changes were made, but I think the some of the original sentiment is still there Pied; don't be so quick to dismiss things as irrelivant.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Oct 7, 2007 19:26:32 GMT
Tifa is in the original game, the finished product of the game's creation carries far more weight than the "original plans".
If what you are saying is true, and that is all we ought to go by, then I suppose you think we ought to dissregard Crisis Core's clash between Sephiroth, Zack and Cloud because in the finished game, Nomura and Kitase took out all the actions that Jenova was going to be taking up to the beta test.
The storyboarding plans are nice to know but it is the finished product that matters.
How is it logical to you to say that just because Tifa came along later that it isn't canon for her to be in love with Cloud??
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Post by piedflycatcher on Oct 7, 2007 19:39:09 GMT
Where have you heard that? I'm sure I've read it somewhere, but I can't find it now... Oh, well, it doesn't matter; I was just using it as an example. I think Lady V has already answered your point for me.
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Post by Sylla on Oct 7, 2007 19:41:54 GMT
Nah, I'm not saying it isn't canon, just... eh, I'll come back and argue this point when I'm better rested. *yawn*
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Oct 7, 2007 20:15:11 GMT
I'd like to say that I do like Aeris and I personally don't think Cloud belongs romantically to either. Now that that's out of the way. My vote, obviously, goes to CloudAeris. Look in the original game; Aeris is the most likely candidate for the date scene in the Gold Saucer. When Aeris first asks for his services in exchange for a date, Cloud readily agrees, whereas with Tifa there's no mention of anything romantic. You can choose in the very beginning of the game to say something like "sleeping next to you? Who wouldn't" as a quote to Tifa asking if you slept well. How's that not romantic, if not sexual? ;D Besdies Tifa nad Cloud have their huge Highwind scene, watching the sun rise waiting for everyone to come back and the promise. Every FF has promise. It's like a trademark of the series. And let's look at the other series: Promise in X: Something about coming when whistling. Yuna/Tidus Promise in Vlll: Something about meeting in a special place. Rinoa/Squall Promise in Vll: Being saved by their hero. Tifa/Cloud Notice a pattern? All the previous or post couples are the "main" cannon pairings. In AC, Cloud can't forgive himself for her death, and he can't get over her either- he's spend two whole years beating himself up over that, that's gotta be one deep love, people. It is not just Aeris that haunts Cloud. No where close. True Aeris is a huge part of it but it's not really the fact that he loved her and she's gone, but that he let her die. That he wasn't strong enough to save her. Cloud is constantly suffering from this strength/weakness theme around him that makes him so human a characters. People so often over look Avalanche's pain after Meteor. The planet is not some happy place now, every things not all better. AVALANCHE has been slandered through ShinRa, who the people know have done bad things but still believe. ShinRa is like the media. They keep pounding terrorist and people are dying in the city because of it. AVALANCHE is not the "good" guy here. Their as bad as ShinRa in some cases. In the book that comes in the AC collectors edition, the novel of AC, it talks about Tifa's pain. Being guilty for the miscalculation in a reactor bomb and killing a lot of innocent people. How this haunts her. How can we be so redundant to say Cloud's pain is souly for Aeris when all these other sins surround him? The whole AC novel is about how each character has so much to atone for. I don't think that should ever be overlooked. And in KH, they first put in Aeris, and Aeris alone. They would have had no trouble adding Tifa in, but they didn't; I think the reason she was in KHII (part of it, anyway) was because the CloTi fans screamed bloody murder at seeing Cloud with Aeris and Tifa nowhere in sight. We can never assume that Cloud/tifa fans changed anything in their decision to add Tifa. If that were true then the whole fanbase would have a remake by now, wouldn't it? ;D Besides, it is implied in KH2 more a Leon/Aerith. This is seen in the ending when Aeris gives a card to Leon. Besides their relationship is much more apparent then Cloud/Aerith's in the whole game. Where as Tifa spends that whole game looking for Cloud then after Seph's defeat tells him to "let her be his light". KH should be looked at as AU and hold nothing on FF7. We can't assume these characters are the same as they were in FF7, though it is implied. Just wanted to point those things out. ;D Also, as I have stated elsewhere, I simply think Aeris is more deserving of Cloud. She is the one who wants to help Cloud find his 'real self'- Tifa kinda shuts up and lets him keep on deluding himself. The only reason she's the one to help him find the 'real Cloud' is because Aeris is dead at that point; if that hadn't been so, I'm sure Aeris would've been the one to help him. She's the one that sacrifices everything to save the Planet, and she's the one that most deserves a happy ending. With Cloud. Okay there is one HUGE problem with the whole "real cloud" problem that people seem to over look. Aeris never went about trying to find the real Cloud. To her, Cloud reminded her of Zack. She says this point blank in the very beginning. Because of Internet/ CC we all know Zack and Aeris had something serious. How can we say that Aeris loved Cloud for Cloud, or even loved him at all? True it's too 2D to look at the problem like this but here we go: After Zack's death it can be agreeded or highly viewed that Cloud took on the projection of Zack and everything he was into his own personality. In effect, Tifa saw through this. Being the only character to know Cloud as a child and teenager, the only character to know him before Zack, she says he's changed. So we know he's acting differently. This could be argued that just the growing process, people change but Aeris, yes Aeris, comments on how Zack like he is. Which leads to the heavily supported theory that Cloud is trying to live up to everything Zack was and tried to be. Thus the whole "finding" himself with Tifa. Tifa did not just "shut up and let him be". She literally dove into Mako to save his sorry ass. I'd say that as trying to help him. Aeris was dead at this time. The time that Cloud finally became "himself" again. How do we know they still would have worked out romantically? True you could argue that we don't know that it wouldn't but I think Tifa has a much better chance now. Sticking through with Cloud through both changes. The last part is Aeris being deserving. No doubt Aeris is a huge part of FF7 and everything we love about it but to say that she "sacrifices everything". That is implying that she "sacrificed" her life for holy right? It was reported by the FF Staff themselves, if you'd really like I could go find the article and get the name directly, it may be Tetsuya himself, that Aeris did NOT know she was going to die. She knew there would be great danger, but she did not expect to die. That is the whole theme, or a major one, in FF7. The shock and unexpectedness of death and how it ripples through time on people. In that retrospect, not to lessen from Aeris's contribution, but I think it's greatly over looked and that fact holds a lot of weight on her "deserving" ness.
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Post by Kysic on Oct 8, 2007 2:43:10 GMT
I know I'm just jumping in the coversation, but I need to defend Aeris a little. I never played the game but read the little of the scripe. Let me remind everyone that there wasn't voice actors for games back when the game was made, just text you read. We really can't be jumping into what Aeris or Tifa meant when they said certain things because tone of voice can't back it up. Tone of voice can make a big difference in conversations. It's just like Internet. Certain things written can easily be taken the wrong way because tone of voice and body language can't back it up. I'm trying to stay on both Tifa and Aeris's sides, but there isn't enough Clorith fans helping things out. I'm not exactly trying to prove which pairing is more canon. I just think everyone is being a little unfair with Aeris. It's late, so don't take what I say the wrong way. Tomorrow, after I get some sleep and get back from school, I'll be back to check things out. One more thing. It IS true Tifa wasn't in the original storyboarding. I read it in a interview, and I also think I read where Tifa was added to add up to the love triangle or something. Arg! I really need to check this fact. I could be wrong. I really shouldn't be posting so late. Remember, I'm both a Clorith and a Clofa supporter for now, so there's not much of a need to argue with me. What I say probably doesn't even matter because I only read some of the script, not played the game .
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Oct 8, 2007 2:49:12 GMT
One more thing. It IS true Tifa wasn't in the original storyboarding. I read it in a interview, and I also think I read where Tifa was added to add up to the love triangle or something. Arg! I really need to check this fact. I could be wrong. The article says (EGM interview) that there were originally three characters: Cloud, Barret and Aerith/Aeris. Following FF tradition one character had to die. You couldn't kill Cloud because he was the main character and everyone would be expecting Barret to go so they killed Aeris. The head designer and director then had a brief phone call about this is which Tifa was born. It is specified the reasons for Tifa being in the game other then Aeris's death, no "replacing of main heroine" or anything like that. So in the end she can at least agree that without Aeris, Tifa wouldn't be here. I thank the flower girl for that. ;D Still, the fact that it still doesn't hold any relevance to the argument holds true.
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Alma
Materia Dealer
Look at me still talking when there's science to do!
Posts: 74
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Post by Alma on Oct 8, 2007 3:38:54 GMT
I don't have much to add because Clan Dragoon pretty much stated everything I was going to say. The Highwind sunset scene and Tifa staying with Cloud in Mideel while he was sick are two pretty pivotal points in the game regarding their relationship. And let's be honest... what guy wouldn't be flattered by a cute chick in a pink dress immediately asking them on a date within seconds of their first meeting? Cloud was taken aback by her headstrong attitude in that scene, not to mention that he had just been hearing some voices in his head (remember the black screen and that inner dialogue before Aeris starts asking if he's ok?). And the player gets to choose whether or not he calls Tifa his girlfriend when they see her ride by in the park of Sector Five. Also, one reason he is ridden with guilt after Aeris' death is because he was literally standing right there and had nearly killed her himself. He walks up to the altar and is about to stab her when Tifa/whoever else in your party yells "Stop!" or something to that effect. Aeris' death adds to his guilt, but its not the only thing he's ultimately beating himself up over. If anything Aeris is a symbol of his failure. -- His failure to protect Zack, failure to make it to First Class, failure to make friends as a child, failure as Hojo's experiment, failure to protect his friends from Meteor (hey, he hands that Black Materia over to Sephiroth himself). But really, everything Clan Dragoon said is what I agree with. I do have one question though.... and you may laugh at me for it. Why is it called "shipping"? What the hell is "shipping"?
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