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Post by leafonthebreeze on Apr 23, 2008 15:10:26 GMT
You can't blame Lucrecia for Sephiroth growing up without a mother, I'm pretty sure I remember her begging Hojo to be allowed to see her son but he wouldn't let her.
Also, remember this is Hojo we're talking about. I severely doubt it was a choice between experimentation or not, it was more likely a choice between experiments awake where she can see exactly whats happening or experiments tied to a table drugged with something he slipped in her tea.
If you're going to go back and blame Lucrecia for giving birth to Sephiroth, you may as well go further back and blame everything that happened on Jenova, for crashing into the earth in the first place and starting this mess. In fact that would probably make more sense, Jenova set out to cause damage, whereas Lucrecia was not trying to hurt anyone.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 23, 2008 15:53:34 GMT
I reiterate: Just because one does not intend to hurt anyone doesn't mean they are any less to blame when things go awry. If you set out to rob a bank and wind up killing somebody in the process, you still wind up getting tried for murder. If you set out to experiment on your unborn child and inadvertently unleash a monster upon humanity - you are still guilty.
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Post by fearandloathing on Apr 23, 2008 16:17:28 GMT
But surely someone guilty of Manslaughter is less deserving of hate than a person who commited the act deliberately?
Which would mean that even though Lucretia is guilty for being the origin of a hellava lot of crap that goes down in VII, she didn't intend for those things to happen - she wanted knowledge/science not destruction of the world.
So that would also make her less deserving of hate than someone like Hojo, who essentially does say 'oh wow this thing here destroys the world, I wonder what'll happen if I massacre thousands of people and see if I can get it all excited'.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Apr 23, 2008 20:57:15 GMT
Exactly Fear, Lucrecia is guilty by association, and willful participation, but Hojo had a much larger role in the events that brought about FFVII. Lucrecia couldn't handle what she had done and dissappeared into a crystal where by her own words in FFVII, "Don't come any closer! Jenova won't let me die." Even she is afraid of what she's become.
After her dissappearance Hojo continues to manipulate people, his research and events in the story line that DIRECTLY cause basically everything.
No one is saying Lucrecia is innocent, the bottom line is that there are worse evils than her.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 23, 2008 21:47:55 GMT
For the second forum in a row- Lady V has said it all- she's totally right!!
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 23, 2008 22:12:36 GMT
True what you are all saying - she is guilty by association. And that most of what she caused, she did so by accident and unknowingly. But it is that fact that causes my drop in respect for her, I can't understand how; 1 - A mother would willingly put her child in in harms way. 2 - She would refuse any help even though she must have known she was in dire need of it. 3 - Sever ties so quickly, suddenly and uncaringly. Knowing the type of person Vincent was. 4 - Still refuse help even after discovering what havoc her son would wreak.
Surely; if she had been the scientist of the callibre we have all been led to believe - she would have known that her actions and decisions would have reprucussions. If common sense can convey that much - then surely she had known that. I still stand by all of my earlier posts on this thread.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 24, 2008 9:25:37 GMT
But surely someone guilty of Manslaughter is less deserving of hate than a person who commited the act deliberately? No. See, that's where I feel that you are incorrect. Someone who committed manslaughter when they were going to rob a bank still was going to rob a bank. Someone who created a genetic freak and almost ushered in the end of the world when she just intended on experimenting on her own child still experimented on her own child. Which is under NO circumstances excusable. I don't give a crap who you are or what you are going towards, experimenting on something that you intend on bringing into being is never, ever, EVER a moral option. Ever. I don't care if you think you've come up for a cure for cancer, if you are going to raise the embryo to human status, you cannot experiment on it. That's condemning a human to something that it has no control over, and it is WRONG.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Apr 24, 2008 13:02:53 GMT
Honey, we know that.
What we are all saying is that Hojo did EXACTLY the same thing- only his part in Sephiroth's future developement was much bigger, more deliberate and therefore FAR, FAR more evil.
None of us would excuse Lucrecia's actions, but Hojo is cruel just for the sake of being cruel even to her, his "partner" in this experiment.
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Post by fearandloathing on Apr 24, 2008 15:27:19 GMT
Totally, Lady V, Lucretia was cut off from her child and couldn't see him even if she wanted to, and as someone mentioned before she wouldn't have thought she was bringing evil into the world, but a superhuman.
The very definition of 'mad scientist' would be a person who takes a disregard for ethics in order to further science (so logically including Lucretia and Hojo, possibly even Grimore), and as morally good as T.Costa's points may be here has been a hell of a lot of progress made in the world through 'unethical' science - graverobbing, human experimentation and other nasty things have all brought good to the world in certain situations (often in the field of biology/medicine).
Are you sure you find that justified, Tasha? I mean manslaughter is still a crime but would you feel comfortable if, say, someone was being mugged and tried to fight off the mugger, who then fell on their own knife or something like that.
Then the person guilty of 'murder' was only trying to defend themselves, but they acidentally killed them, they can be convicted, sure, but would you say they should serve the same time as someone who commited murder with intent?
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 24, 2008 15:47:40 GMT
Now I know Costa's name!!
Again- Lucrecia may be to blame for being a participant in the experiments...but Hojo was the initiator. Why is there all this hate for her when Vincent, a beloved character, obviously holds her in such high esteems even though he should be with Yuffie?
You can't blame Lucrecia for Sephiroth's actions; the man didn't even know of her- in his own words, he stated that his mother was named Jenova and died....how can poor Lucrecia still be to blame if that's the case?
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 24, 2008 16:28:09 GMT
Because if she had taken the help offered when she'd direly needed it - then Sephiroth wouldn't have been raised a pawn of ShinRa's.
I realise Hojo is an evil little cockroach, but look at it this way; the child was within Lucrecia's womb - it was her responsibility to protect it, not Hojo's.....
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Post by ladyvaltaya on Apr 24, 2008 18:06:51 GMT
How could she protect Sephiroth when she was busy having fainting spells and pain brought on by Jenova giving her haunting images of the future?
She couldn't have been strong enough to protect herself; she had no idea that this experiment would do any of that to her.
Hojo was the one who refused to let her see Sephiroth- not even ONE time did she ever get to see her child. Hojo was the one who told Sephiroth that she was not only dead, but he even told him that her name was Jenova. He tried to erase all traces of her existance not only from Sephiorht's life, but even his medical files.
Those are not the actions of a responsible scientist. Hojo knew exactly what he was doing and he clearly didn't care who it hurt to hide the truth like that.
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Post by marilena on Apr 24, 2008 18:09:19 GMT
Hm, I feel no sympathy for Lucrecia. I can't stand it when women screw up and then act all damsel in distress like and "oh-sob-please-forgive-me-I'm-a-just-a-poor-sad-soul-who-made-a-mistake-and-OH-sob-sob-I-feel-so-sorry-for-making-you- fall-in-love-with-me-to-the-point-where-you-think-I-still-look-hot-even-though-I'm-crying-a-river"
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 24, 2008 18:24:46 GMT
That's right Marilena - come to the dark side.....we've got cookies....
We all know how much of an evil little creep Hojo was - everyone does, but this is about Lucrecia. Yes, the fainting and pain and visions were unexpected by her - but in all honesty, what did she think injecting the cells of a two thousand year old alien calamity, one that tried to destroy the very planet, into her own unborn child, and her own body would lead to? Happy times?
As for not being able enough to protect herself; I'm going to be EXTREMELY blunt with this one; Hojo was an evil little fecker who liked to run around with his test tubes all day...surely; if she had wished to leave that badly, she would have found a way, or an ally...if she had been that desperate to escape and protect her child; she would have found a way to, be it on her own, or with a staff member - even AVALANCHE if she had been that willing to protect the child.
And I am aware that Hojo is the one to have tried his utmost to erase Lucrecia from Sephiroth's life...but, again; she had brains to burn, an advanced intellect...did it really take that much brains to realise that Hojo was only interested in the child to further his research - surely she would have realised that she would not be permitted a true mother's role? Honestly; how could the woman be so blind?!
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Post by marilena on Apr 24, 2008 18:28:56 GMT
I second that, Renolvr.
And, of course, the "she was in love" argument is out of question in this case... She wasn't in love with Hojo. She knew the risks involved. She wasn't powerless or incapacitated- she could have acted if it was in her best interests. Hell, she could said "No. I quit." Vincent would have provided for her, that's for sure.
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