Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 24, 2008 18:44:02 GMT
I'm putting this blunt now, cos I'm tired of the opposition re-posting the same arguments again and again.
Blame Lucrecia all you like, but the simple truth of the matter is that Hojo is to blame more so than her- as earlier stated; she could hardly protect herself whilst pregnant, lat alone the baby, what with the visions and fainting...and that brings to light yet another hypthesis- what if Lucrecia knew what would happen whilst pregnant; she knew she was going down and that's why she gave Vincent the cold treatment; she didn’t want him going down with her...like his father had.
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Post by marilena on Apr 24, 2008 19:14:49 GMT
I'm afraid that the first part of the above argument is partially invalid, while the second is not an argument altogether- it's an hypothesis, as you stated. While an hypothesis is always good and gives room for thought and introspection, it is sadly not a solid counter-argument.
I said that the first part of your argument was partially invalid, because claiming that Lucrecia was unable to act because of her pregnancy and visions is an exaggeration. I mean, come on, she wasn't in a coma. She was pregnant. I've heard of pregnant women going through hell -both physically and emotionally- to save their babies. All she had to do was walk through the door and ask for help, if not from Vincent then from someone else. Hell, anyone with some power would do, because Hojo was not a superhuman himself. Also, it's impossible for me to accept that nobody would help her. FFVII is a normal world with all kinds of people, not Rosemary's Baby. And the visions? What, was she connected to la-la land 24/7? I have a hard time believing so.
I'm not saying that Hojo was not evil. He was, very much so. But this doesn't take the blame off Lucrecia's shoulders.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 24, 2008 19:59:00 GMT
I'm not insinuating that it does take the blame from her, for nothing can do that...but what is it with the hate-fest?
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Post by marilena on Apr 24, 2008 20:04:26 GMT
I don't hate her, I just don't sympathize with her. I merely dislike her, you could say.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 24, 2008 20:09:11 GMT
Fair enough.....
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Post by marilena on Apr 24, 2008 20:15:25 GMT
Hehe, yep. I respect your opinion, you respect mine, and we're both fine!
/end bad rhyme
Ah, the corny things I'm typing today. ;D
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 24, 2008 20:17:27 GMT
It's not so much a hate-fest Kas, but this thread is here for us to stake our views on Lucrecia, be they; like, dislike, indifference, hate, respect, no respect. We're simply putting our views out there and backing them up. As are the ones who are in sympathy with Lucrecia and like her.
It just happens that there's alot who dislike her posting at this moment in time is all.
As for Marilena's statement; I agree. Lucrecia didn't have her hands tied or anything, and yes; she was suffering from pain and premonitions - but not all day, everyday.
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Post by Kysic on Apr 24, 2008 23:27:24 GMT
It's not so much a hate-fest Kas, but this thread is here for us to stake our views on Lucrecia, be they; like, dislike, indifference, hate, respect, no respect. We're simply putting our views out there and backing them up. As are the ones who are in sympathy with Lucrecia and like her. You're right. This is most of the reason I created this topic. If you read the very first post, I said people can say why they feel what they feel about Lucrecia as long as they weren't too offensive about it. When it comes to my own feelings for Lucrecia, I'm a little more neutral than some other fans, but like some other people, I don't excuse Lucrecia for letting her baby get harmed and some other things she did. I don't exactly dislike her, or at least I don't think I do, but some of her actions rubbed me off the wrong way. It may be because one of my online friends is a Lucrecia hater, and it's rubbing off on me .
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 24, 2008 23:51:20 GMT
You already know why I dislike Lucrecia, but in all honesty it stems from my belief that as the progenitors of the species, we as women have a responsibility to be....well, responsible with those abilities to procreate. It's the reason I haven't had kids - because I wouldn't be able to care for them or myself properly. And there are women out there who would kill for the chance to have a child (one of my best friends is one such woman - she cannot conceive). So the idea of someone abusing that privilege, in any way, is morally offensive to me. Ergo, Lucrecia is the bigger villain in my eyes. Hojo was twisted, Lucrecia was sane. That's not to excuse Hojo, but he's clearly a sociopath - a person who cannot conceive of there being a negative reaction to their actions. Lucrecia knew and did it anyway, and in doing so abused the one thing that women have over men. That really burns my biscuit.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Apr 25, 2008 11:06:15 GMT
Hm, I feel no sympathy for Lucrecia. I can't stand it when women screw up and then act all damsel in distress like and "oh-sob-please-forgive-me-I'm-a-just-a-poor-sad-soul-who-made-a-mistake-and-OH-sob-sob-I-feel-so-sorry-for-making-you- fall-in-love-with-me-to-the-point-where-you-think-I-still-look-hot-even-though-I'm-crying-a-river" This is interesting because if you think about it, Vincent did the same thing. Except without all the crying. Lucrecia messed up, was unable to die and what did she do? Encase herself in crystal, presumably to lie there and think about her sins or something. Vincent messed up, was unable to die, and did a very similar thing - slept in a coffin for over thirty years to atone for his sins. You dislike Lucrecia for that, but not Vincent - so what's the difference here?
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Post by marilena on Apr 25, 2008 11:23:50 GMT
First off, I don't dislike Vincent, but I think that what he did was stupid. I don't dislike him, because it's not like he didn't try. He tried to stop this madness with all he had; he attempted to convince Lucrecia otherwise (even though he probably did so for a selfish reason, being in love and all), and confronted Hojo about it. He suffered without being at fault. Lucrecia suffered too, but it was her damn fault that she agreed to experiment on the child.
What did Vincent do wrong? He tried to save her, tried to change the course of events, and ended up half-dead. In fact, the only reason he failed to save her was the fact that he was unconscious in a lab. What could he have done? Kidnap her and keep her away from needles? In his mind, it was his fault-- but this doesn't mean it was really his fault. He loved her, couldn't save her, and overreacted. Stupid? Why, yes. But, that's all. In a way, he was an outsider; he didn't get to make the crucial choices. You can't blame him for anything else other than taking the blame when he shouldn't, unlike Lucrecia.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 25, 2008 11:50:30 GMT
Vincent didn't sleep for the full thirty years- it came to light that he woke up for a short time during "Before Crisis" to aid his old friend Veld in destroying a few montsters with his markmanship and also helped him to find a support Materia Veld was looking for to try and save his daughter, Elfé's life....
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 25, 2008 15:49:07 GMT
I second Marilena's statement.
Vincent was collateral damage - he got caught in something that honestly shouldn't have concerned him in the first place - and he ended up suffering because of one woman's choices.
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Post by Kysic on Apr 25, 2008 22:45:49 GMT
Hm, I feel no sympathy for Lucrecia. I can't stand it when women screw up and then act all damsel in distress like and "oh-sob-please-forgive-me-I'm-a-just-a-poor-sad-soul-who-made-a-mistake-and-OH-sob-sob-I-feel-so-sorry-for-making-you- fall-in-love-with-me-to-the-point-where-you-think-I-still-look-hot-even-though-I'm-crying-a-river" This is interesting because if you think about it, Vincent did the same thing. Except without all the crying. Lucrecia messed up, was unable to die and what did she do? Encase herself in crystal, presumably to lie there and think about her sins or something. Vincent messed up, was unable to die, and did a very similar thing - slept in a coffin for over thirty years to atone for his sins. I once read a forum that really got me to really understand Vincent's actions. A user in the forum named Hellbandit explained it very well and had things to back it up. Since I like how Hellbandit says it, I'll just quote him/her off a topic about Vincent's morals: "So if he's selfish enough to hid in a coffin, he could be selfish enough to murder people in cold blood? Hmm, I don't think you could draw such a connection so easily. For one, I find his reasons for staying in that coffin to have nothing to do with selfishness. We know that one of the reasons he stays in that coffin is to 'atone'. Many, many people confuse what he is saying with this. They think he is saying that by hiding away in a coffin he could gain some form of redemption for himself. Vincent was never out for personal forgiveness-- never. In AC, he even says, "I never tried..." However, even before AC I understood that his definition of atonement had nothing to do with personal redemption. Atonement means in the dictionary, "To make up for doing something wrong or harmful." This doesn't always imply, "to redeem one's self from doing something wrong or harmful." It means to make up for it. Vincent strikes me as a man who is afraid of himself and what he can be. He thinks himself a monster, of that I am certain. He probably chose to stay in the coffin in belief that he deserved to be there because of his indecision and that he deserved to be contained because of what he was. He's a man who sees himself as a curse I think. He blames himself completely for what happened in the Jenova Project; and even when he understood what was wrong and went to confront it, he was shot by Hojo, once again proving to himself that he is destined to fail. He probably allowed Hojo to lock him up because he believed that he would only do more harm than good and would only end up adding more sins to himself because of his failings. He probably thought that by being locked in a coffin, time would pass and 'atone' for what happened thanks to his involvement. As long as he didn't get involved, things might actually work out. However, what happens? Sephiroth grows older and tries to destroy the world. When Vincent hears this from Cloud, he begins to despair because he realizes that 30 years has done nothing to heal the problems that started those many years past. It only got worse. His initial response is to once again sleep in his coffin because he believes his actions will only cause further failure. However, in the time Cloud leaves him in his coffin, he realizes that his doing nothing will, in turn, solve nothing. 30 years he did nothing and look what happened. That is why I believe he changed his mind and choose to follow shortly thereafter. Does that change his views of himself? No. One of the reasons I think he chooses not to get close to people is because he thinks that by doing so he will only hurt the person he gets close to. That is why he still keeps his distance and often has to be dragged into things. He finally got out of his coffin because he realized he'd have to try, at least, to stop things from spiraling further out of control. He started off by bringing justice to Lucrisia, understanding that it all started with Hojo and the Jenova Project. He then continued to kill Sephiroth, because he realized that Sephiroth too is a product of his own indecision concerning the Jenova Project. In AC, he studies Geostigma and closely follows the SHM because those two entities are related to the Jenova Project indirectly. He later chooses to go on to fight the DG because they are related to the Project years ago, once again, in an indirect manner. Even Gackt's Redemption song seems to suggest this. Much of the song goes talks about how "your kind words cannot heal me now.", "This body is dedicated to the everlasting fight", and many areas of it that discuss how he will "erase it all". I can't remember it word for word, my apologizes, however, when you read the song it does seem to make sense. I found that it fit Vincent well. Vincent dedicates himself to the undoing of everything concerning the Jenova Project so as to stop his 'sins' from growing and to bring justice to the damage he let happen. It really makes sense when you think about it. Just look at everything he does and it does fit my theory." I divided a paragraph or two because some of the paragraphs were kind of long and a pain to read. If all the posts in this forum I'm quoting weren't so long and complicated, I would just summarize the whole topic. Like Hellbandit said, Vincent went in the coffin as a way to atone himself. When I say atone, I mean he did it to make up for his "sins," not get forgiveness. If you want to read more about this topic, I'll offer the link again (I once offered it in Vincent's topic, but it's pretty buried by now). www.ff7-doc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1514Sorry if this off topic. I just wanted to clear that up. If you don't believe what is said, I suppose I shouldn't hold it against you, but I believe Hellbandit. It does make sense to me. Edit: I just would like to add that I'm really not in the mood to debate at the moment. A lot of bad things have been happening to me lately, and I've been in a more irritable mood than usual. I rarely am easy to anger, but it wouldn't be wise for me to debate in my state right now. I feel fine now, but I don't want to take any chances. If you want to know more about the topic about Vincent I mentioned, just read all the posts in the link I offered. I know a lot of the posts are long, but they are very educational. Besides, I probably would get everyone out of topic.
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