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Post by fearandloathing on Jul 16, 2007 1:42:04 GMT
I think she was covering up her own confusion, she sorta chose Hojo because he was her job, and I mean, it's Vincent how do you choose Jimmy Neutron+mid-life crisis over THAT! So in my mind she was confused and guilty and was basically covering up for it. Because we all want to hit that, All, OKAY?
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Mar 27, 2008 0:45:23 GMT
Lucrecia......hmmm - i hate her, and I don't. I understand that she did in fact care for Vincent more than she should have, considering he was her bodyguard....but; It is my opinion that she is the one who should bear the blame for Nibelheim, Meteor, Geostigma - and all the other attrocities that Sephiroth caused. Vincent knew she was in trouble and he offered her a way out upon learning of project J - a direly needed helpling that Lucrecia literally threw back in his face. Most put this down to her confusion at the time; she had loved Grimoire, Vincent's father, and he had died protecting her from harm when one of the experiments went wrong; so it is only natural that she should feel apprehensive upon learning that Grimoire's only son/child has been placed as her bodyguard - she doesn't wish to see Vincent killed in the line of duty like his father was...I agree mostly with this theory. However; I cannot get my head around her plain out stubborness to accept help! On more than one occasion; Vincent offered her a lifeline - and every single time she rejected it; chosing to stay with the living cockroach that was Hojo - surely for any mother-to-be, her greatest fear is for her unborn child to come to harm, and she will do her utmost to protect the life that is growing within her - not allow it's demented and deranged father to inject it with alien cells and experiment on it - let alone whilst the child was still within her very womb! It is my opinion that she is the one to blame for most of the tragedies that happen in FFVII and the compilations. Vincent was shot and killed because of his will to protect Lucrecia, and becuase she wouldn't accept his help; it left him no other choice but to face Hojo on the matter - leading to Hojo shooting him. Sure - Lucrecia may have been responsible for bringing his body back to life via the chaos gene and stagnated lifestream - but is was her fault that he'd been shot in the first place and her experimentations, along with those of Hojo's led to the almost living death of immortality that Vincent must now bear.
Moving on; I do not blame Sephiroth for massacaring Nibelheim, or for killing President ShinRa(I've no problem with his death what so ever - he deserved it!), or for Meteor fall, or anything for that matter. I blame Jenova - the being that's will flows through his veins - how do you possible act upon your own will whilst there is another being intertwined with your very genetic code? But above Jenova - I blame Lucrecia Cresent - again; she had the choice to walk away from it all - she saw in visions what attrocitites her son would commit and yet she still would not leave while she had the chance! She could have walked away on several occasions - but yet she wouldn't; she stayed put and complied to Hojo's wishes; knowing full well what havoc Sephiroth would wreak on Gaia - even bring Gaia to it's knees.........to me; Lucrecia is nothing more than a selfish woman.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Mar 27, 2008 16:19:25 GMT
It is my opinion that she is the one to blame for most of the tragedies that happen in FFVII and the compilations. Vincent was shot and killed because of his will to protect Lucrecia, and becuase she wouldn't accept his help; it left him no other choice but to face Hojo on the matter - leading to Hojo shooting him. That's a bit harsh. It's not like Lucrecia actually pulled the trigger. XD I think it's unfair to blame her for Hojo's nastiness. Lucrecia did bad things and made terrible mistakes, but she came to regret it. Hojo is much worse imo because he was responsible for all the experimentation and Sephiroth's birth too, but he never repented.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Mar 27, 2008 16:25:41 GMT
I'm not meanin to be harsh on her, but that's my view of her - and I can see what you mean also hun; but the way I see it; she had more than one chance to walk away from it all; and she didn't she chose to stay put - putting herself, Vincent and Sephiroth in harms way when she knew it.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Mar 27, 2008 16:55:57 GMT
I don't agree, sis- I mean so what if she'd went with Vincent? Sephiroth still would have been Sephiroth on account of his Jenova Cells- whose to say he became what he did solely because of Shinra's meddling? He could have still wandered down his broken path on account of his genetics. I agree with Pied Flycatcher though- Hojo never repented; even in the original game, Lucrecia asks Vincent if Sephiroth is dead and he tells her yes, hoping she would find peace, and yet three years later (Dirge of Cerberus) she is still apologetic and trying to atone for her wrongs...begging forgiveness.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Mar 27, 2008 17:26:52 GMT
I don't agree, sis- I mean so what if she'd went with Vincent? Sephiroth still would have been Sephiroth on account of his Jenova Cells- whose to say he became what he did solely because of Shinra's meddling? He could have still wandered down his broken path on account of his genetics.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 17, 2008 5:00:38 GMT
That's a bit harsh. It's not like Lucrecia actually pulled the trigger. XD I think it's unfair to blame her for Hojo's nastiness. Lucrecia did bad things and made terrible mistakes, but she came to regret it. Hojo is much worse imo because he was responsible for all the experimentation and Sephiroth's birth too, but he never repented. I hate Lucrecia. With a firey, undying passion. I can take evil people; I dislike Hojo immensely but I don't hate him because, well, he's intrinsically not good (Although he does creep me out quite a bit; I expect that if he lived here he'd drive a child molester van). Lucrecia's stupidity almost cost the world it's life. I can take evil; I cannot tolerate stupid. (This may be why I disliked Cloud so much in the original FF7; for a good chunk of the game he's kinda like "WUT?") Someone can repent for offending somebody or stealing. In my opinion, there is no repenting for someone who agreed to experiment on her own child, almost caused the end of the world - twice (or more), and ruined a man's life because of her own inability to make an intelligent choice. That's like saying Charles Manson's stuff was all a mistake, but he's sorry now. Mark my words, Lucrecia knew she was making the wrong decisions, but she did it anyway - you can tell in the flashbacks in Dirge that she knows she's wrong. That's just stupidity - to fly in the face of your own instincts when everything is telling you you're wrong. I hate Lucrecia. There's a saying that Martin Luther King Jr. gave. It goes "the greatest sin of our times is not the few who have destroyed, but the vast majority who've sat idly by." It's true. Hojo is nuts, but Lucrecia let him have his way. Lucrecia is, IMO, the real villain of FF7; not Sephiroth. (I apologize to anyone who likes Lucrecia - I hated her from the get-go and Dirge of Cerberus only served to solidify that hatred >.< That's eight years of me hating someone who doesn't exist...long time to stew.)
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 19, 2008 23:12:47 GMT
*Jumps up and down on the spot* YES! Someone else who finally shares my opinion of Lucrecia!
Costa; I am in total agreement of your above statement, Lucrecia knew exactly what she was agreeing to and the implications of it (visions of the events Sephrioth would cause), she'd been offered help(Vincent) and she still turned a deaf ear to the warnings....everything that had led to the events of FFVII, FFVII:AC, CC, DOC - were all brought about by her unstomachable stupidity.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 20, 2008 7:43:34 GMT
Haha. We can be partners in crime. Rollin' up and hatin' Lucrecia.
Sorry, I'm very very tired. XD
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Post by leafonthebreeze on Apr 20, 2008 19:15:57 GMT
I don't know, I think Lucrecia was very very confused when she made a lot of the decisions she did. Hojo is a pretty terrifying guy, and Lucrecia isn't the most strong willed of people. A lot of what influenced her decisions may have been out of pure fear, both for herself and her child. I suspect Hojo would have found a way to experiment on that child whether he had her consent or not, and it probably seemed a lot safer to give in then find herself having experiments forced on her like Vincent later did. She also may have hoped she could influence Hojo to be a better person, and if she had succeeded a lot more of the tragedies of FFVII would have been avoided. I don't think its fair to blame all the tragedy on her, or to dismiss her as merely stupid. After all, Hojo had far more of an influence over events then she did.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 21, 2008 19:55:24 GMT
I don't know, I think Lucrecia was very very confused when she made a lot of the decisions she did. Hojo is a pretty terrifying guy, and Lucrecia isn't the most strong willed of people. I'm sorry, but not having willpower isn't an excuse for letting something like that happen. If you see something wrong going on in front of you, you should step up to the plate and stop it. And those are words I live by every day. Any less puts you on the level of cowardice and stupidity. IMO.
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Post by leafonthebreeze on Apr 21, 2008 20:05:40 GMT
But as I just said, it's possible she wasn't just "letting it happen", she was trying to stop it in her own way, kinda like Yuna marrying Seymour in the hope that she could send him... She just failed, and it seems harsh to dismiss her just because she failed, even though she tried her hardest, in her own way.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 21, 2008 21:50:30 GMT
Okay - me gettin my thoughts in! ;D Lucrecia knew what she was getting involved with; she knew, as did all others at that time, what kind of a man Hojo was...one that saw science and scientific experimentation more important than all else. If it is true what you said hun; that alot of what Lucrecia chose was due to her fear, fear for her safety and her unborn child, Sephiroth...it doesn't make sense to me; she chose to let hojo experiment on the child within her womb due to her concern for the baby's safety - I apologise; but I honestly cannot see the logic in the action at all, to me; she put the child in danger by allowing such an action to take place. True; Hojo may have found an alternative route to get his way - but by that time; Vincent had offered Lucrecia help, offered to protect her and get her away, which would have eliminated Hojo's threat of forcful experimentation. As for her hoping that by allowing Hojo permission to inject the cells of an alien calamity, that tried to destroy Gaia and killed most of the Ancients/Cetra race, into an innocent and unborn child, she could influence him to become a better person - I would say she was deranged and out of her mind - along with belonging in an insane asylum. And yes - Hojo did have alot more influence over the events of Final Fantasy VII - and why? Because the damage had already been done - Sephiroth lost himself because Genesis had revealed to him, the true being that was Jenova...the truth of his heritage and lineage was what twisted and poisoned his mind - a feat that would not have transpired if Lucrecia had found it within herself to protect her child instead of turning her back on all help that was offered her way.
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Post by Sai on Apr 21, 2008 22:16:03 GMT
I believe that those who see evil happening and take no direct with it are evil themselves. This theory tends to make me believe that Lucrecia is at fault just as much, if not more so, than Hojo. Hojo was sticking the needle in her, but she was allowing it to take place. She stuck around, and there were ways out (all she had to do was say one word to Vincent and they would have been gone), but she was a coward. That's right-- a coward.
I loath the woman now more then ever. She did things that are so disgusting that I don't even think the planet wants her back. She's filthy and inhuman, more then Sephiroth.
And I don't care if she regreted it after it was done-- you already did it. Just because she said sorry doesn't erase the torture and brutality you forced upon your own child. Guh. Disgusting woman. I hate her more as the day passes.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 22, 2008 4:57:27 GMT
But as I just said, it's possible she wasn't just "letting it happen", she was trying to stop it in her own way, kinda like Yuna marrying Seymour in the hope that she could send him... She just failed, and it seems harsh to dismiss her just because she failed, even though she tried her hardest, in her own way. That's reading quite a lot into it. IMO, Lucrecia was being selfish, whether it was because of guilt over Vincent's father, hope for a name for herself within the scientific community, or plain old stupidity. When one is a female who is about to bear a child, it is no longer about you - it is also about your unborn child and anyone whom they may come into contact with in the future. Lucrecia was not trying to save anything, and she was not at all like Yuna. Now, if they'd planned on injecting a fetus with cells and then aborting it, I don't think I'd dislike Lucrecia as much. But the fact that they were going to experiment on a child she had every intention on bringing into the world - that, in itself, is quite unforgivable. Lucrecia was a heinous b**** who deserved what she got.
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