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Post by leafonthebreeze on Apr 22, 2008 9:18:11 GMT
o_0 Man... I didn't think there was that much out and out hatred of Lucrecia... I find her vaguely irritating and I think she made some mistakes but I can't bring myself to hate her. She wasn't trying to hurt anyone, she didn't set out to cause pain. She is not a b*tch, she's dumb and you can hate her for being dumb if you want, but I think it's slightly unfair to call her a b*tch considering she isn't intrinsically evil, IMO.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 22, 2008 15:48:58 GMT
Well, first of all, what she did to Vincent makes her a b****. She clearly liked him and then just gave him the cold shoulder for no apparent reason (yes, there was a reason, but she didn't bother to explain it to him or try to work it out or anything a normal person would do). That, in itself, is an act of b**chery. Yes, Lucrecia was a b****, and it's a perfect descriptive word for her. I wouldn't call her a cast-iron one, but I'd definitely call her one.
But experimenting on your own child? That's stupid, yes, but stupidity can't be explained away sometimes either. Blind ignorance is more evil than evil itself. IMO.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 22, 2008 16:18:15 GMT
Lucrecia openly flirted with Vincent, she led him on - then suddenly tried to sever all ties to him, I understand that some of this was done out of her grief and guilt about Grimoire, but that doesn't justify the confusion and hurt she caused Vincent - by simply severing her ties and giving him the cold shoulder; it made him more determined to help her.....which led to his death and experimentation, and the Vincent Valentine we all know nowadays. I find that her actually being willing to allow the experimentation on her own unborn child to be the lowest moral point for her - seriously; how much lower can you sink than that? Willing putting an unborn, pure and defenceless child at risk - I have absolutely no respect for her, I don't wish her the chance of redemption self-contentment.....she doesn't deserve it!
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 22, 2008 17:07:46 GMT
Lucrecia was depressed by her confusion surrounding her love for Grimoire and his death by means of shielding her...she would obviously feel some kind of emotion towards his son as the two were similar and yet...the feelings grew and the woman was understandibly cast into a deep confusion as to whether she loved Vincent, or just the part of him that reminded her of Grimoire...also the thought that she could hurt him as she had his father...she thought she could kill Vincent aswell...
I think that Lucrecia gave Vincent "the cold shoulder" becuase of her immeasurable confusion and depression...she chose the side of science, possibly hoping to further Grimoire's research through means of Hojo's Project J...hence Sephrioth...but I don't think that Lucrecia led Vincent on- if anything he was infatuated with her and she attempted to distance herself from the yougn Turk before she hurt him as she had his father.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 22, 2008 21:49:44 GMT
I don't think that Lucrecia deliberately led Vincent on, but she clearly liked him and then suddenly was very cold. That's just mean, regardless of confusion.
No, I loathe Lucrecia. There's no explaining her behavior off. Even if she was just confused, she screwed up BIG TIME. In the real world of adults and bills and responsibility, you'd go to prison for some of the things she did.
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Post by leafonthebreeze on Apr 22, 2008 22:17:59 GMT
Maybe I just sympathise with her, as I'm someone whose made very stupid mistakes many times, which probably hurt people, but at the time I thought I was doing what was best for everyone. To me, a pregnant dog is someone who purpously sets out to hurt someone, just to see them suffer, like Scarlett or something, not someone who hurts people by accident or makes mistakes. Guess it's just a difference of opinion.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 22, 2008 22:43:13 GMT
I understand where you're coming from Leaf - and I'm seriously trying to view this thing from Lucrecia's point of view...but it still doesn't justify anything or straighten things out... She didn't want to hurt Vincent, we all know that, but she cut him out so suddenly without as single explanation; surely, with her intelligence as a scientist and such; she would have fathomed that the Turk wouldn't just simply turn away...all Vincent had been looking for was an explanation as to why she was so friendly and so on, on minute - and barely even registering his existance the next... The only true person she hurt intentionally; was her own son. Which makes the fact twice as bad...a enemy, even an ally - but her own unborn son; I'm sorry huns - but I can't see the logic in that action, only selfishness.
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Post by fearandloathing on Apr 22, 2008 22:43:44 GMT
I feel terrible for Lucretia she didn't mean to do so much stuff, as in, like, she didn't mean for the things she did to work out like that, but they just DID and it all went wrong and f*cked up for the lot of them >.< DoC actually had me tearing up with Lucretia, when she was just apologising and apologising to Vincent because she knows it's all her fault, but at the same time she's so glad he didn't die
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 22, 2008 22:57:05 GMT
Yes - alot that Lucrecia caused was not intentional, but the fact of the matter is; she willingly gave her own unborn child to Science...she willingly cut Vincent off...she willingly refused Vincent's help...she willingly took the steps that were needed to set everything into motion. Good for her for apologizing - she should; but that doesn't give Sephiroth his life back, free of Jenova's influence and his own derangment, it doesn't bring Zack back - if Sephiroth hadn't gone nuts; neither Zack or Cloud would have been injured and brought to ShinRa...it doesn't give Aerith/Aeris back her life, it doesn't give Vincent back what he lost, it doesn't give Vincent back his normality (not that there's anything wrong with the current him huns!) But the heel of the hunt is; sure maybe most wasn't intentional...but collatoral damage never is.
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Post by T. Costa on Apr 23, 2008 5:58:39 GMT
Renolvr summed it up wonderfully. Seriously, that was very well-worded.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Apr 23, 2008 11:05:59 GMT
But the heel of the hunt is; sure maybe most wasn't intentional...but collatoral damage never is. But if the consequences were unintended, is it really fair to blame Lucrecia that much? In hindsight, she made terrible decisions, but it might not have seemed like that at the time. Letting her unborn child be experimented on is probably the worst thing Lucrecia did, but she might have thought she was actually doing it a favour. They were trying to create super humans - there might be something attractive for a scientist like Lucrecia to be the mother of a super human created by the power of science. I'm not saying that means it was the right thing to do, but she could have used that justification for herself. And come on, there were a lot of things that weren't Lucrecia's fault. You can't blame her entirely for what happened to Vincent - blame Hojo, he fired the shot. Lucrecia tried to save him; if she hadn't, he would have died. There's no way that Lucrecia could have foreseen how her son would turn out either. Nor can she be blamed for Hojo's behaviour - it was Hojo who captured Cloud and Zack to experiment on them. Hojo was the one who intended all this maliciously. If I had to pick an evil scientist in FFVII, it would be him.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 23, 2008 13:25:05 GMT
Pied is right...blame Hojo more so than Lucrecia.
Lucrecia was confused and he took advantage of that- led her astray by filling her head with the thoughts of the "Ancients" he planned on creating...maybe even told her he needed her specifically just to make use of her womb...and she fell for it.
If anyone needs to be blamed, it's Hojo.
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Post by Sai on Apr 23, 2008 13:32:09 GMT
I still disagree. Lucrecia knew what her son was going to become (the weird dreams where she saw Sephiroth in the fire of Nibelheim, dead peoplea round him and he looking wild and nuts) in DoC, which means she kneww exactly what was going to happen and she did nothing. JUst because she had guilt did not really give her the okay clearing for her to go and screw up countless people's lives. That's what happened-- Sephiroth destroying thousands of people's lives in Nibelheim, and then even more when he called down Meteor, then more with the SHM. She saw this and becaus eshe was afrais she stuck around? That's not right nor fair-- there was time. She knew there were ways of getting out before it was too late.
Her sin was the largest of the game-- it was here sticking around, thinking that everything was going to be alright, that killed countless people. Ethically, she is to blame.
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Kisara Strife
Turk
AVALANCHE Rebel
Because he can't be dead ... T_T
Posts: 2,576
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Post by Kisara Strife on Apr 23, 2008 13:44:02 GMT
She may have seen what Sephiroth was to become but she was already pregnant at that stage, heavily so...and the child was her son.
Just because she stuck around doesn't mean it was her intention- Lucrecia tried to kill herself, reportedly numerous times, but the Jenova Cells always prevented so...how can a woman who is ready to take her own life be to blame, when she has suffered so much herself?
Yes, she *may* be to blame, but don't heap everything on top of her- let her be to blame for what is solely her fault- Sephiroth's existence.
Anything after his birth can be blamed on Sephiroth himself, for Lucrecia had nothing to do with him after that time. He was an individual of his own self and thus had free will until cracking at the reactor and even then, I believe the only reason Sephiroth's mind gave way like that was because he was the most sensitive out of himself, Angeal and Genesis- the others could handle being "monsters"- Genesis through his belief in Minerva and Angeal through keeping his pride...Sephiroth was unable to handle the origins of his existence and this brings me back to Hojo yet again- see; that horrible little man is inextricably bound up in the blame of what happened.
So once again- do not blame Lucrecia for every single thing that has happened to Gaia- the birth of her son, the blame stops at that point.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Apr 23, 2008 14:40:39 GMT
I'm going to be me, and disagree again huns!
I still find myself placing the blame upon her shoulders - Kas; you said that Sephiroth was an indiviual and had his own free will - a point I disagree with...how can you claim that he had his own free will when he never knew what it was like to have a mother, never knew what a family unit was like to be in, never understood the significance of a hometown...from day one; Sephiroth had been, literally a pawn of ShinRa's. I don't see how that can be viewed as free will.
Yes - Hojo pulled the trigger, but my thoughts still go back to Lucrecia, she left Vincent in such a confused and hurt state; that it didn't take a scientist to realise he wasn't going to just let things go.
Surely if you were having a child; you would be grateful enough that the child growing within in you is healthy and will, hopefully, remain so. Surely the last idea to come into your head would be one of experimenting on the unborn child, which would undeniably put the child at risk, regardless of whether or not it involved you making a name for yourself or the prospect of the child's abilities.
Yes - Lucrecia did try to kill herself, and why; because those weird visions/dreams/premonitions showed her what would inevitabely become of her son and all the heartache and destruction he would cause - it was then that she realised her mistake, but the mistake had been made.
And as for blaming Sephiroth - I don't. True; he was the only one out of the three SOLDIERs who mentally cracked over the truth of his origins - but mainly due to him realising how much of his life had been just one whole lie - whereas both Genesis and Angeal had mothers - Lucrecia had abandoned him, simply vanished after his birth, what was he supposed to think; his own bilogical mother had turned away from him - who else was left to turn to than Jenova?
Okay - Hojo has a lot to own up for - he was the one who came up with the whole "Project J" thing - but he couldn't have gotten anywhere without Lucrecia, and her willingness to risk her health and that of her unborn child's.
I'm sorry if you all see this differently; but I can't not blame Lucrecia.
BTW; thank's Costa! ;D
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