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Post by Sai on Dec 10, 2008 21:29:58 GMT
*Sigh* Really shouldn't be in here... However, I'm going to talk about Ultimania for a moment. Because, lots of you wanted to know the translation. I've found another copy ahm... "Fuel for the love triangle debate: Nomura refers to Tifa as being many things, including a lover/sweetheart (in a romantic/sexual context; "koibito" is the Japanese word used here), and Nojima says that when he began writing the script for Advent Children, the first thing he was sure of being part of the setting is that Cloud and Tifa were together. That said, Nomura may have meant that Tifa's a lover in the same way people will say "I'm a lover, not a fighter," and Nojima may not have meant "together" in a romantic context. For the record, I think Tifa's got this won, but that's me personally. Let the war continue!" This is exactly what it was. There isn't anything that states 'it's the trrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!' That's it. That's everything that has to do with Cloud's 'love' for Tifa. It doesn't state explicitly: Cloud was in love with Tifa, wants Tifa, and that's it. The author of the book inserted his own opinion, which is what I think you're talking abut when you say 'Ultimania proved that CloTi is canon.' I don't want to be mean or anything, so don't think I'm doing it to be biased and silly, but I'm just saying what was written... I wish I could find my copy with the pictures and everything, so I could show you. faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html
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Post by T. Costa on Dec 10, 2008 21:59:39 GMT
I have said this before, and I will say this again, but CloTi and Cleris = NEITHER are canon, although both are heavily implied (and possibly at this point fanon). Canon refers explicitly to the games, movie and novellas. If it tells a story, it is canon. Ultimania is not canon, it's a guidebook that can be wrong or misinterpreted, mistranslated, or the person being interviewed got caught off guard or whatnot. If you go to any other fandom they'll tell you the same - canon is what the series itself states, NOT what a guidebook states. Because there is no "official" definition of canon in this usage, I'm going by the closest true definition - canon originally referred to the books of the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church deemed "official." In this case, it's stuff Square deems "Official." They haven't said anything, it's only implied and not stated in storyline, ergo, it is not canon.
The only canon pairings in FF7 are Cid/Shera, Zack/Aeris, Hojo/Lucrecia/Vincent, Dyne/Eleanor, Barret/Myrna and a few NPC's. Everything else is pure conjecture.
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Post by Tennyo (Nentikobe) on Dec 11, 2008 3:30:25 GMT
XD WIN!!!!11 *Sigh* Really shouldn't be in here... However, I'm going to talk about Ultimania for a moment. Because, lots of you wanted to know the translation. I've found another copy ahm... Well you did and now you must pay!!!! (kidding) First off, this part of the article was talking about the Reunion Files, not the Ultimania. As far as I know no one in this thread has brought that book up in the depate. I know I certainly haven't so as to avoid the "koi-bito is a fish!" stuff that is floating around the internet (I kid you not.) There are still the FFVII 10th Anniversary and Crisis Core Ultimanias to consider that each have their own interesting things to say. Author of the book or just the person on Gamefaqs who wrote the article? I'll have to go with the latter. I've actually read the Reunion files since it was published in English alongside the Japanese. What is in the article is not all word for word taken from the book. You're not being mean. In fact, I think this is the most civilized LTD I've ever encountered. lol Well... here's at least some pics: gloriosa.midgar-rock.org/acart.php?reunion lol I know there are copies somewhere on the internet. In fact I wondered if I downloaded them myself... Anyway I'll ask around and try to find them. MAJOR EDIT OF EPIC PROPORTIONS:I found it, I found it, I really really found it! thelifestream.net/ Put together by former ACF peeps. The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.
In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC. - thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/786/tifa-lockhart-character-profile-from-the-crisis-core-ultimania/#comment-287
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Post by Hope on Dec 11, 2008 9:49:42 GMT
Oh Oh Oh! Thank you so much! *Jumps up and down in excitement*
I've been writing a story that weaves in and out of game canon and I started with the timeline dates alongside each entry, but the other Ultimania site went down and I've been having to work my way through a strategy guide, trying to estimate when each day ended. Now I have the proper timeline again! YAY!
Thank you so much Tenyo! I really, really owe you one!
Sorry for the intejection!
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Post by NRGburst on Dec 11, 2008 10:10:32 GMT
Seriously- what do people think "koibito" translates as? It's incredibly clear when you read the kanji. (Moira, it's the same characters as the Chinese ones for "lover," which I know you can read.) Cheers anyway SaI and Tennyo... I'll click the links right after I finish PRing this fic I've been putting off because RL is freaking busy at exam/pre-holiday time.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Dec 11, 2008 13:31:58 GMT
Ooh, thanks for the link, that's really useful! *bookmarks* Well, if that isn't obvious, I don't know what is.
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Post by Tennyo (Nentikobe) on Dec 11, 2008 14:42:34 GMT
Oh Oh Oh! Thank you so much! *Jumps up and down in excitement* I've been writing a story that weaves in and out of game canon and I started with the timeline dates alongside each entry, but the other Ultimania site went down and I've been having to work my way through a strategy guide, trying to estimate when each day ended. Now I have the proper timeline again! YAY! Thank you so much Tenyo! I really, really owe you one! Sorry for the intejection! By other Ultimania site do you mean the one at AdventChildren.net? This is the exact same one. There were A LOT of people who put A LOT of time and effort into the translations. It wasn't just some simple rush job. They did a great job and gave it their all. And then SY just up and ditched the site and the whole thing was lost. Luckily it seems someone still had a copy and it is all up on this site.
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Post by kajnrig on Dec 11, 2008 16:39:42 GMT
As far as that quote goes, it means absolutely bull. I remember talking to Pen (...right?) about this, and we both agreed that it's exactly like the whole JK Rowling "Dumbledore is gay" bit. If it's not discernible from the game and Compilation's story, then it shouldn't be considered canon at all. Just because some "official" word is given doesn't mean it should be taken as complete proof. As Costa said, the only thing that should be taken as canon is the events portrayed through the game/Compilation as filtered through your interpretation.
If someone needs to explain their story through an outside source, then it just means that they failed at explaining it in the first place.
...that said, let's see if I can't dig up one of my Clerith arguments...
"1.) At the end of the original game, when the light flashes, they all see Aerith; at least, this is a conjecture you can make. The fact that she appears solid and wholly human (versus a Lifestream incarnate or something) can be taken as her not yet moving on, of her waiting for Cloud (which is proven later on that yes, she isn't yet moving on).
2.) Cloud, because he sees this, and because he sees what Aerith does for the Planet, is very much content afterwards, knowing that he'll get to see Aerith by the end of his life, which would explain why he's comfortable living with Tifa and co.
3.) Once that feeling of contentment starts to wear off, though, he begins to lament the fact that he can't be with her in life. This feeling of loneliness bleeds over into the rest of his psyche, which is what starts up the whole grieving over sins issue (because it's obvious that his grief over Aerith's death plays a significant role in his melancholy; it doesn't play an ENTIRE role, but a SIGNIFICANT role nonetheless).
4.) Ergo, he moves into Aerith's church. Now why does he do that? I've brought it up before, and I'd say it's because he feels comfortable there. Unlike anywhere else, he is comfortable in the one place where he can be somewhat close to her. Once he contracts Geostigma (or maybe he did already, I dunno...), he goes there. This is significant, because it shows that he has an inherent distrust in Tifa to be able to take care of him. Or perhaps it's that he doesn't feel like he can take care of her. Regardless, in his most trying moment, when he is near death, he seeks out not Tifa, not Barret, not Vincent, but Aerith. The one person he chooses in the world to go to is Aerith, which tells me that his relationship with her is much more intense than it is with anyone else. This doesn't indicate romance by its very nature, but it does present a very strong argument for that claim.
5.) During AC, he begins re-establishing his connection with Aerith. At first, all he does is speak to her; he doesn't get the chance to ever see her. It's apparent that this is weighing heavily on him, more so than just the guilt and stuff. It affects him so much that he even nearly dies - the first time he talks to her, he tries so hard to see her that he doesn't pay attention to his surroundings, and if it weren't for Yazoo's horrible aim, he would've been shot off his bike. This again implies that he has a very deep and personal connection with Aerith, one that runs much deeper than any he has with any other character.
6.) At the end of AC, again, when he DIES, he is finally reunited with her. It is only after he dies that he is surrounded completely by white, completely suspended in it. If the white is taken to be the Lifestream, and Aerith is meant to be something of a connection to it, then it is here that Cloud is most at one with the Lifestream, meaning that he is at the very same stage of "being" as Aerith - death, but not yet returned to the Planet. Then it is after this and ONLY after this event that he finally sees her face again. And then, finally, she heads off to become part of the Lifestream, not because she's leaving him, but because she gave him the strength (through experiencing death) to live through the rest of his life - and be content with it - until he finally sees her again in death."
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Post by Mengde on Dec 11, 2008 17:42:29 GMT
The only woman who knows Cloud’s past.
In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC. And what? I know plenty of people who realize their feelings for one another and don't pursue them because they'd rather remain friends or it wouldn't work out. Living together isn't necessarily a sign of romance, either. Plus, kaj has a good point about the Dumbledore-is-gay thing. Suppose that Rowling knew that Dumbledore was gay, but never mentioned it to anybody, ever, and took the secret to her grave. Would that mean that everybody who ever wrote Dumbledore as straight would then be in violation of canon? No, because it was never stated that he was gay in the books, which are the ultimate source of canon, regardless of what Rowling thinks. The fact that she's announced it to the media doesn't mean that it's canon by the same virtue. If you're still not convinced, then what if Rowling stated something contradictory to the books, like "Harry is a girl"? It sure as hell wouldn't be canon that Harry was a girl. The same thing applies to FFVII and its related media. No pairing is canon unless it's explicitly made clear that it is. Cloud and Tifa are never once shown kissing one another or engaging in similar but more fun activities, they never say "I love you" or "stay with me forever" or anything like that, and so on. That being said, I still write Cloud/Tifa. It's very easy to suppose that the night they spent together beneath the Highwind when everyone else was gone was passed with prodigious amounts of rogering that they later regret (or not, depending on how I want to write it). But that's all it is - supposition.
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Post by Pen Against Sword on Dec 11, 2008 21:36:38 GMT
As far as that quote goes, it means absolutely bull. I remember talking to Pen (...right?) about this, and we both agreed that it's exactly like the whole JK Rowling "Dumbledore is gay" bit. If it's not discernible from the game and Compilation's story, then it shouldn't be considered canon at all. Just because some "official" word is given doesn't mean it should be taken as complete proof. As Costa said, the only thing that should be taken as canon is the events portrayed through the game/Compilation as filtered through your interpretation. If someone needs to explain their story through an outside source, then it just means that they failed at explaining it in the first place. Yes, that was me, Kaj, you forgetful man. Let me start off by saying that I have nothing against Cloud/Tifa. In fact, if I ever write Cloud being with someone, it's usually Tifa. It just seems natural to me. HOWEVER. I have to say that I, personally, do not think it's canon. This fact, however, may seem dubious to someone else, depending very much on how they interpret the word "canon." I am of the opinion that if it is not in the source material (meaning the game and the compilations, or in the case of books the novels written by the authors, etc), then it is not canon. If the creators have to go so far as to publish in the Ultimania, which is outside of the original storyline or the add-ons in the forms of the compilations, that Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other -- I don't consider that canon. If they could not show us that in FFVII, Advent Children, or DoC, then why do they have to outright tell us in the Ultimania? If it's not obvious enough in the actual canon, then it's not canon, to me. If the creators actually have to outright TELL US, then they're doing it wrong. I believe this about all "canon" things, especially literature, and I expressed to Kaj-Nrig that I dislike it when authors/creators go infodumping on us about things that are for them, as the authors/creators, only (like all of Rowling's infodumps about the characters. If it wasn't in the books, then it's not canon to me). Some may argue that there are things that can happen in FFVII that indicate Cloud/Tifa, but I will say this: I agree with Mengde. They never outright admit that they are more than friends or feel that way. There's a lot of indicators on Tifa's side, imo, and there could be some with Cloud, but that's all just hinting. I have never seen them even go so far as to hold hands. I think it's implied that it might happen, but I don't think it's stated outright in the source material. This may just be my interpretation, but besides that scene under the Highwind, I don't see how anyone can say that the game(s)/Advent Children ever showed anything but light implications. I like Cloud/Tifa, but I will go so far as to say that I will argue that it's not canon.
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Post by T. Costa on Dec 11, 2008 22:18:38 GMT
I don't really support any one pairing in FF7 so I shouldn't even be in here - I don't mind CloTi or Cleris, I'll read either and neither upsets me. But to say that one or the other is canon is bull - the pairings I listed above are the only canon ones, ones that are explicitly stated in-game or in the various Compilation pieces.
Ultimania is not canon, in the same way that the Star Trek guides are not canon. Canon refers explicitly to the parts of the story, not the guidebooks to the parts of the story. Going back to the original meaning of canon, the Bible is the approved scripture of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church published a guide to the Bible, it still wouldn't be "canon" because it's not a part of the Bible. The meaning of the word "Canon" isn't really up for debate, insomuch as it was a real word adapted for fandom use. FF7 and the Compilation is our fandom "Bible," and the Ultimania is not part of that "Bible."
Granted, I'm of the opinion that Tifa and Cloud probably did get together, but because it was never stated, it isn't canon - yet.
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Post by t3hmaniac on Dec 11, 2008 22:30:24 GMT
continuing with the whole "Bible" train of thought would that make you lot Christian and me Jewish because I say that Sephiroth was not reborn (i.e. AC and DOC never happened)
or am I readeing too much into this. Darn drowning my sorrows in alcohol.
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Post by NRGburst on Dec 11, 2008 22:32:42 GMT
I don't really support any one pairing in FF7 so I shouldn't even be in here - I don't mind CloTi or Cleris, I'll read either and neither upsets me. But to say that one or the other is canon is bull - the pairings I listed above are the only canon ones, ones that are explicitly stated in-game or in the various Compilation pieces. Ultimania is not canon, in the same way that the Star Trek guides are not canon. Canon refers explicitly to the parts of the story, not the guidebooks to the parts of the story. Going back to the original meaning of canon, the Bible is the approved scripture of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church published a guide to the Bible, it still wouldn't be "canon" because it's not a part of the Bible. The meaning of the word "Canon" isn't really up for debate, insomuch as it was a real word adapted for fandom use. FF7 and the Compilation is our fandom "Bible," and the Ultimania is not part of that "Bible." Granted, I'm of the opinion that Tifa and Cloud probably did get together, but because it was never stated, it isn't canon - yet. This. Exactly. Wasn't this same argument a couple of pages ago?
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Post by Sai on Dec 11, 2008 22:47:45 GMT
They've been removing that copy every time I found it. The one of gamefaqs was the closest I had found in a loong time.
Plus, it still doesn't say it: Cloud loves Tifa. The end.
It doesn't. Let's take apart the sentence....
The only woman who knows Cloud’s past. (well, yes, of course. After all, she was the only one who knew without being told. She was from Nibelheim, as well.)
In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. (^^)She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC. (Okay, this is what's getting you riled up? "She and Cloud came to realize their feelings" (Feelings of? What? Friendship? Platonic? Romantic? That's waaaaaaaaaay too basic to base your entire theory on. I can say that Pirates and I have come to realize our feelings-- we decided that we like torturing one another. We don't love each other. 'feelings' is not 'good' enough to be considered the entire 'side' of the story. "Live together in AC and DoC." Well, I could possibly live with Pirates. Heck, he said we'd get married so I could go to college. Still... not loving on him. It doesn't state that they are in the same bed. In fact, I remember very clearly in Case of Tifa, Tifa saying something about Cloud's room. Which, by default, means they aren't sleeping in the same bed. Granted, that can go two ways, but I don't see that as 'good' enough.
I won't go into what Kaj, Pen, and Mengde went into, stating that anything in the game isn't canon, because it's a touch and go situation for me, there. Using the bit on Rowling stating that Dumbledore was gay is true, however. It may be canon, and it may be what the author knows in her mind as the truth, because the story is hers, but it wasn't in the books, so people can pretend like it's not true. And that's fine, because technically, it's not. I see plenty of AD/MM stories, and they're cute and fluffy. But, I wouldn't have the audacity to outright tell them that they're raping canon by putting a gay man with a woman. By stating that 'CloTi is canon, and that's it. Everyone else who puts Tifa with Vincent or Cloud with Yuffie is wrong' just doesn't float with me. The reason I don't like CloTi has nothing to do with me being a fan of yaoi, or whatever you like pinning me with. It's because of people who shove it down others throats like it's canon. I don't sit here and preach of certain pairings being canon, because I know they're not. I write them because I like them, yes, but that doesn't mean I think that every fan must know that 'this relationship' is canon and thus, all others are less worthy. Drink your tea with lemon or with sugar, I'll take mine black, thank you.
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Dec 11, 2008 22:54:28 GMT
"Well, I could possibly live with Pirates."
I'M NOW A HYPOTHETICAL PREMISE IN A DEBATE!!! ;D BEST MOMENT OF LIFE EVER!
Also, Cloud Aeris for life, yo.
All canon and subtext and whatever you're all arguing about aside, I just don't think Cloud likes Tifa like that.
Don't know why, I just don't.
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