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Post by piedflycatcher on Apr 26, 2007 21:25:27 GMT
I remember that in the old forum Siskin started a topic devoted to discussing Cloud. Sadly, that died, but since I like overanalysing characters, I'd like to start up a discussion once again. I think I'll start a thread for all the major characters, but Cloud comes first, since he is after all the hero of the story. Some questions... How much of Cloud in the first disc do you think was Zack? Is Cloud really an archetypical hero? Do you think he's really cut out to be a leader? Also, bonus points for bringing up how emo (or not) Cloud is. I mean, I personally don't think Cloud is emo at all. But I couldn't resist with the thread title.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 1, 2007 15:32:08 GMT
Lol... you and I have talked about this one a lot too...
I don't know. Zack is friendly and personable. He has a heart of gold and a will of steel- the guy did not know the meaning of the word quit.
Zack's loyalty and courage got him killed. Zack Fair died because he wouldn't abandon Cloud while he was sick with Mako poisioning. I think that Cloud's insanity changed his friend's effervecent and trusting personality into a mask that was less interested in the people around him because he didn't want that to happen to him too.
As for the rest of the Questions...
No Cloud isn't an archetypical hero. Cloud is only the hero because he went insane thinking he was Zack, the hero who died saving him. Only in the Silent Hill series is an insanity that big considered acceptable for a hero type character.
Is he cut out to be a leader? Yes... and no... Yes because he is a caring person who wants to believe that he can be a hero, like Zack. Cloud uses that desire to help him make difficult decisions that will affect everyone not just himself and he tries hard to make fair choices during these times.
No; because he has done the hero thing and now he's more interested in finding a place in the world where he can figure out who he is and what kind of a life he wants to build for himself and the people he cares about. He will always be a powerful fighter and I don't think he'll hesitate to defend himself and his friends whenever monsters or Deepground pop up, but he doesn't want glory anymore.
Cloud is a very complicated character. He was alternately neglected and verbally abused as a kid and he spent a quarter of his life floating around in a Mako tank after he ran away from home to join SOLDIER. He has been through a lot. He may always have trouble expressing himself, but he really does care for Tifa and the kids.
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Post by piedflycatcher on May 3, 2007 9:47:50 GMT
Yeah, what I find interesting is that some of Cloud's behaviour near the beginning of the game isn't really Zack-like. Is Zack cold and uncaring? No, I don't think he is, yet that's what Cloud tried to be like.
He has Zack's mannerisms, some of his memories, and that cocky attitude though.
Tifa wanted him to comfort her by putting on that cocky, heroic attitude... is this because that's how she remembers the old Cloud, or just because she wants him to be a hero?
Anyway, about being a leader... I think once Cloud has got his identity sorted out, he actually makes a good leader. Not that he wasn't an able leader before... but the going insane part didn't really help.
In the same way, I think that after AC, Cloud will make a good father. We already know he's very caring and protective, and I can see him getting along well with the kids. Maybe because he's such a big kid himself; perhaps he can relate to them better. Am I the only one who finds the idea of Cloud in a father role completely adorable?
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 3, 2007 14:05:16 GMT
LOL... You know me- I find Cloud adorable in any role- or dress!! (please tell me I didn't just say that...) err... anyway... That's a particularly interesting question; I've played the game FFVII (especially the earliest stages) more times than I can count. That night at the well is an important memory for both of them. Tifa trusted Cloud with a secret that night that she would never (probably) share with anyone else. She asked him to be her hero. She wants to be the fairytale princess that gets rescued by the handsome knight on his white charger. True, she was only 14 then and little girls often do silly things like that, but I don't think Tifa's heart ever really grew up after making that wish. I think she held onto it as much as she could as a way of holding onto her innocence (if that makes sense), because of the way her childhood came to such an abrupt end. (Thanks very much there Seph...) Tifa is the most popular (and I'm guessing the prettiest) girl in Nibelheim. Cloud is always in trouble (or at least that what Tifa remembers) for fighting and doing stuff he isn't supposed to. Shortly before he is to travel to Midgar he makes an unlikely attempt to talk to the little girl he wants to impress and she does meet him... When she asks him to make her that promise how could he refuse? Its everything he's ever wanted!! Does he really believe he can keep that promise? He's willing to try even after she got him into trouble after the two of them fell off of Mt. Nibel together!! That has to say something very good about the size of Cloud's heart and his loyalty. I hope some part of that made sense... I really do think Cloud will make a good father. I think that having him get in some practice with Marlene and Denzel is a crucial step toward helping him believe that though when he and Tifa finally get around to having their own. Cloud's own father died and he was too young to remember him, but Cloud is very protective of people he cares about so we know he's going to stick around.
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Post by Captain Wee on May 15, 2007 20:06:34 GMT
Well, you've got to remember that Cloud was essentially 16/17 when final fantasy VII occured. He was captured, experimented on, and had his best friend die in front of him. On top of that, he had to save the world without knowing who he was.
I think he would make a good father if he's able to sort all that out. Advent Children was a good start, but he's got a long way to go before I could honestly call him fatherhood material. I see him as more of a brooding big brother type, the one who's too cool to hang out with the kids.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 16, 2007 22:08:51 GMT
I won't argue with that except to remind you that unlike Squall for example, Cloud likes people- he is just not always sure how to show it.
Cloud is a caring person and because he and Tifa both lost the tail end of their childhood, these two have a special reason to want to protect other kids. ^_^
He seems to have learned his lesson about withdrawing from people. I think he will make the adjustments he needs to to become a good father because he wants to be close to the people he loves.
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Post by outfoxed on May 26, 2007 13:33:56 GMT
Well, most "heroes" today are starting to fall underneath the meaning of the term "anti-hero" these days, if this following definition is anything to go by: "Anti-heroes as central characters in works of fiction will frequently deal with their flawed characteristics and those of the characters they meet along the narrative. Another form an anti-hero may take is a character who avoids any idea of heroism, not out of a sense of humility, but due to a genuine fear of danger, or even risk. Therefore, typically, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, either striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society of their world."- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntiheroSo, in my opinion, that would make Cloud more of an anti-hero, rather than a stereotypical "hero". As for the "Emo" label... It's a real buzzword these days, but people generally don't seem to understand what it means. (This is doubly true of the ff community). I'm not going to get into the meaning of the musical term here, but rather the social (i.e. pejorative) meaning. Being "emo" generally refers to making up problems for yourself and seeing your life as being harder or worse than it really is (watch "Hope is Emo" for a great example of this.) Yes, Cloud broods a lot, but in his case, I think it's quite justified, considering all the crap he's been through. (hometown burnt to the ground, only parent murdered, tortured and experimented on for several years, watched his soulmate die at the hands of a deranged lunatic. The list goes on..) And that's my 2 cents.
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Post by piedflycatcher on May 26, 2007 15:43:15 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure I would call Cloud an anti-hero. I always think of anti-heroes as protagonists who aren't particularly good people and aren't out to save the world. Their motives aren't what you'd call pure - there's usually a selfish interest or moral ambiguity. Cloud is a flawed character, but still a morally good one. He is partly motivated by revenge but at the same time I think it's pretty clear how much he cares about his friends and that he wants to rid the world of evil. And by stopping Meteor, he's also making up for his mistakes while he was under Sephiroth's control. But he's never inclined towards evil of his own free will. Cloud's a nice guy. I don't think he's a stereotypical hero either though. Just that in my view, flawed hero doesn't necessarily mean anti-hero.
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Post by Neophyte Ronin on May 27, 2007 5:09:46 GMT
Practically all heroes save one are flawed, from a technical standpoint. Anti-heroes, when I read the literary definition, simply consists of someone who does not fit all criterions of a typical hero. Heroes are typically flawed, so being an anti-hero must mean a lot more. Cloud is just the protagonist, or "first debater", and anything else in his way is his antagonist.
I consider Cloud Neutral-Neutral, occasionally Neutral Good.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 28, 2007 19:55:48 GMT
Heroes have to be flawed or they aren't interesting. Only children think it's interesting to read stories and whatnot about a person who always does everything perfectly all of the time.
Struggle builds character, and whether you like Cloud or not, he has a LOT of character. He's been through enough hardship to destroy an army and he came out of it smiling in the game.
As for his actions during AC... Contracting Geostigma did not cause Cloud's alignment to shift in any way. He has always been and will always remain a good person. In the game Cloud didn't worry too much about the laws and stuff while we were blowing up reactors and cruising around in stolen submarines.. for a few examples. If I had to pick an alignment for Cloud I would probably have picked Chaotic Good going by the AD&D rules, but Neutral Good would probably be an okay guess too.
Chaotic good- combines a good heart with a free spirit.
Neutral good- doing what is good without bias toward or against order.
During AC Cloud was waiting to die. He has had Jenova's cells in his body for about six years by the time he contracts the disease without any outright threat to his health from Jenova- and now after all that time the monster is trying to kill him from within? That makes having an alien eat its way out of your stomach look like a more pleasant way to die- at least that would be fast... And he would have been spared the occasional flashes of insight into what his "brothers" who also share her cells were doing...
That would give anyone pause since the cells inside of him have given him great power in comparison to normal humans.
Yes, Cloud was slow to act- but the point is, in the end he DID act.
He did try to get out of it, but he finally went to the Forgotten City, he tried to save the kids and if it hadn't been for Vince he would have been killed- or captured which I'm thinking probably would have been worse.
Even Aerith did have her own little faults in the game. She wasn't perfect, she was so quick to tell Barret to just "cheer up and have fun" that it boredered on the ridiculous during the first visit to Gold Saucer, but that was consistant with her behavior throughout the game. Aerith was funloving and free spirited, no matter how bad things looked she was determined to live... That is why her death is such a tragedy.
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Post by piedflycatcher on May 29, 2007 13:21:02 GMT
In the game Cloud didn't worry too much about the laws and stuff while we were blowing up reactors and cruising around in stolen submarines.. for a few examples. If I had to pick an alignment for Cloud I would probably have picked Chaotic Good going by the AD&D rules, but Neutral Good would probably be an okay guess too. I think it's also important to remember that Cloud wasn't himself during that point early in the game. And the submarine was stolen from Shinra... I don't think he'd feel that was a great loss. Cloud is fundamentally a good person. His character flaws make him do some stupid things, but the most important thing is that underneath it all he cares. And I think that the line in AC where he says there's not a thing he doesn't cherish really sums it up.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 29, 2007 16:18:06 GMT
In the game Cloud didn't worry too much about the laws and stuff while we were blowing up reactors and cruising around in stolen submarines.. for a few examples. If I had to pick an alignment for Cloud I would probably have picked Chaotic Good going by the AD&D rules, but Neutral Good would probably be an okay guess too. I think it's also important to remember that Cloud wasn't himself during that point early in the game. And the submarine was stolen from Shinra... I don't think he'd feel that was a great loss. ;D Oh come now, Pied dear, I never said I was against stealing from Shinra. I also didn't mean to say that Cloud really needed to have a confused excuse for helping bomb the reactor. The same goes for Tifa and Barret, actually. They needed to send Shinra a message that would be difficult to cover up and impossible to ignore. People have been hurt all over their world already and it was only going to get worse if something wasn't done about it. However I didn't feel like a discussion of alignment would be complete without nixing the lawful part of the possibilities. Shinra controls EVERYTHING in thier world with thier money and power. There is little point in obeying the laws of their world anyway since Shinra twists them to suit their needs from one moment to the next anyway- like when they were going to execute Tifa and Barret in Junon without giving them a trial for example... There was no doubt in my mind that Cloud is a good guy. ^_^ That wasn't my point. Ronin says he's neutral neutral. I dissagree- Cloud is NEVER neutral neutral because as you said there is nothing that he doesn't cherish. He will fight to protect everything that's important to him that makes him a good guy.
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Post by outfoxed on May 30, 2007 2:10:22 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure I would call Cloud an anti-hero. I always think of anti-heroes as protagonists who aren't particularly good people and aren't out to save the world. Their motives aren't what you'd call pure - there's usually a selfish interest or moral ambiguity. Cloud is a flawed character, but still a morally good one. He is partly motivated by revenge but at the same time I think it's pretty clear how much he cares about his friends and that he wants to rid the world of evil. And by stopping Meteor, he's also making up for his mistakes while he was under Sephiroth's control. But he's never inclined towards evil of his own free will. Cloud's a nice guy. I don't think he's a stereotypical hero either though. Just that in my view, flawed hero doesn't necessarily mean anti-hero. Good points there. Cloud is basically a good person, but let's face it, he isn't entirely altruistic. See Zidane from FFIX, (whose motto is "You don't need a reason to help people!") for comparison. The difference here is, Cloud often does need a reason, or at least some kind of motivation to help others. For example, he's not out to stop Sephiroth and Jenova simply because it's the heroic or "right" thing to do. He's doing it because he's seeking revenge, and he readily admits that (along with identifying similar causes held by the other characters in his party, late in the game). It's just that saving the world happens to be a part of that revenge. So this character is at least walking the line somewhere between hero and anti-hero, the way I see it. Personally, I think that he would make a great villain if, say, someone pushed him too far, and he just snapped one day..
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Post by Azul Eyes on May 30, 2007 4:16:58 GMT
Now that would be interesting!
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Post by Captain Wee on May 30, 2007 13:01:57 GMT
I think Cloud would make an astounding villain. He's got all the necessary attributes, but I could never see him losing truly descending into evil. I think he does have some altruistic traits, but they are reserved for the ones he loves. Even then, he only shows his feelings in times of crisis, he doesn't wear them on his sleeve.
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