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Post by cendri on May 5, 2007 21:02:20 GMT
The 'yo' thing is kind of a slant translation of the 'zotto' thing in AC. But I don't generally regard that as canon, just another 'verse to play in.
Fanon does get silly sometimes. Though, I will admit to creating backgrounds for some people, and mannerisms that are not overtly stated and all that amongst my fics. But that's kind of a personal sort of... continuity? I wouldn't believe that to be the gospel truth, so to speak. I kind of consider a general fanon that gets used over and over again as a lack of imagination. Like does Reno always have to be alcoholic-ish? Does Barret always have to be nothing more than a plot device?
Bah, I said I wasn't going to chat much, and look at me. XD
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Post by f8f4mfl on May 6, 2007 6:42:02 GMT
Pied, in the right places, fragments can be acceptable. I'd say the only major concern with them would be if the author was clearly unaware that their sentence was really a fragment, or if fragments were used in excess.
It's funny; most of the things that I thought of writing about in this thread were already mentioned! The "orbs" thing drives me up the wall. It just doesn't sound right, and there are plenty of other ways of explaining what you mean without using that word.
I'm also a grammar nazi. I beta fan fiction for a couple friends of mine and have rarely come across a piece that I don't tear apart. (I routinely rip apart my own writing, as well; don't get the impression that I have a big head.) It really is a learning experience; no body of work is going to be completely perfect, ever. So I think there comes a point where you just have to let it go and leave it be. But I digress.
What can I add that hasn't been mentioned? CHARACTERIZATION. Poor characterization makes my skin crawl. It's the thing that has driven me to stop reading fics almost altogether. Most often this applies with Sephiroth fan fiction. I don't have a big problem with minor characterization issues--after all, not everyone is going to view the character the same way. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Having Sephiroth fall in love with, say, Tifa, or your well-endowed OC, marry and have 16 children is NOT within the character's limits. It's ridiculous. As soon as I come across something that hints at the stench of poor characterization, I have to stop reading, end of story--even if it only applies to one of the characters in the fic.
It's a shame, and good character portrayal can be tough sometimes, but I think it's vital to have a believable story.
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Post by piedflycatcher on May 6, 2007 8:47:06 GMT
Whoops... accidentally clicked 'modify post' there instead of 'reply'. Sorry about that, I've corrected it! Yes, I'm aware of that. I use fragments quite often myself. They're quite useful for writing a cracked persona like Cloud's. I've seen authors make excellent use of such a technique. And yes, characterisation is hugely important. These aren't our characters we're writing about, after all, and people reading fanfiction want to read about the characters they know and love, not some stranger with a familiar name. Characterisation is also one of the more subjective aspects of fanfiction though. People interpret things differently. But that's no excuse for blatantly disregarding the characters' personalities.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 6, 2007 11:57:53 GMT
Both of you said that perfectly!! ^_^
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Post by sienna03 on May 7, 2007 4:01:38 GMT
No, in that case, all you'd have to do is politely inform the author so they can correct the mistake. I don't see anything wrong with that. Ah, I think you initially struck me as a much more severe grammar nazi; I agree with you in this case. (Although, if you're not the person's beta, I see little point...) Agree to semi-agree, I suppose!Oooh, look! An opportunity to rant! It's very discouraging when an author of a multi-chaptered fic starts out strong, and then suddenly starts getting careless a few chapters in. I've seen this several times. A story will become popular, get massive reviews, and then suddenly all the author cares about is updating as fast as possible, at the sacrifice of editing. Ah, gawd, I know! When authors do that, I'm left bitterly disappointed (and, strangely, feel more used than a...well, you know. )
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Sztorm
Recruit
I crush on dead men.
Posts: 191
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Post by Sztorm on May 8, 2007 0:16:21 GMT
I'm a grammar and spelling nazi--I'll admit it. Heck, I'll edit this post if I notice a typo after the intial posting. I don't see how that can be detrimental to someone's creative expression, though. When I write, I get it out there as fast as I can before I lose it, and then go back, give it more structure if need be, and then agonize about grammar and flow. I hardly claim that my first "draft" of anything is perfect, grammar-wise, but good proof-read or two (or ten in my case) will do wonders. I don't have a beta, but I don't see that as an excuse for any technical errors. Before I come off sounding too grouchy, though, I should point out that this is me, and I'm my own worst critic, plus I'm an obsessive compulsive perfectionist with my own stuff. I'll read bits and pieces over and over when writing, read the whole thing over and over when finished, and will often read it a couple times after it's posted, just to be sure. In reading fics, I can overlook a typo here or there or on the rarer occasion, a sentence that's worded strangely or needs a comma, because everyone makes mistakes and yeah--it's not professional, it's for fun, and it's generally for practice. But at the same time, I'm reading for fun, and if I end up having to wade through error after error, it ceases to be fun for me, and I hit the back button. And WORD on what was said about the characterizations. There's obviously a bit of leeway with individual interpretations, but I kind of see characters as if they were on a spectrum or something. On the character-color-wheel, if Sephiroth's violet, I can see him sliding over to red or blue a bit, but you're not going to convince me he's the complete opposite and yellow. Errr...or something like that. <---art nerd (because I just brought color theory into this, ehehe...)
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Post by Neophyte Ronin on May 20, 2007 11:09:39 GMT
Even worse than every pet-peeve documented so far, from technical slights to punctuation, from poor characterization to original characters... after all these, do you know the worst one?
...Going back and editing the damned thing.
Now that everyone pointed out what went wrong in your story, you have to go back, weed the simple stuff, dodge the purple stuff, shorten the long stuff, resolve the punctuation stuff, and then fall in love with Sztorm for some stupid reason (probably because you two think alike?), only to find out that still... practically nobody is reading your stuff! That's even worse.
...Another pet-peeve is when you read a genre that does not conflict with a game's story, but nobody cares for it. You would think sorceresses, creatures possessing and robbing your memories, and sinister authorities training gifted children into killers would not constitute some relation to the horror genre, either film noir or gothic...? Then there are a lot of "Squinoa Het" Romance Sagas that get such merciless attention that I find it sickening. Some don't even bother to jeopardize the romance--it just is... indomitably so....
...Here's what bothers me to no end: reading a fic and wondering, "Well, there's another good comedic episode with Reno and Rude, but they weren't really into that kind of 'Gods Must be Crazy' physical comedy together in the beginning. What if we found a better duo of nimrods to bash for fifteen minutes?" Not to go out of character, but there are some characters that people don't pay attention to at all. Cait Sith, for example... is virtually ignored. Watts and Zone are also potential candidtes for improved abuse. I even know a few authors who, in a slash-oriented fic that started out real cool with excellent ideas, would put Watts and Zone in there just to say that they were involved (they weren't). That fic melted down near the end; cool concepts, excellent beginning, but poor execution. To summarize, it's hard toying with unfamiliar characters, but people never rise to the challenge. Most have fun and ditz around, but I respect those who can make screwy unknown characters sing.
The last one isn't quite a pet-peeve but more an observation. It leads to you becoming interested in something when it really turns out to be crap near the end. Stirring up the expectations of your readers is one thing, but you have to actually deliver the goods. I look at my Castlevania fic and think: "Holy crap, how am I going to live up to that level of quality and still keep them interested?" Maybe it's writing avoidance that churns those thoughts?
Okay, I'm calling it a day.
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sephulbadis
Slum Dweller
monkey in a meat hat
Posts: 24
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Post by sephulbadis on May 20, 2007 17:24:16 GMT
Me, I hate villain redemptions. It's a personal thing, god knows there's people out there who could happily live on sweet healing romances with happy endings and that's completely fine. It makes me cringe, though. There are three reasons why.
1. When the villains stop being villains, there goes the motive force of your whole cast of good guys. This is especially so in canons where there's only one major nasty. A cast that loses its bad guy feels sad, because our heroes will have no more reason to do anything. It's domestic bliss and watching golf in the afternoons after that point, and that's -not- a happy ending.
2. It's usually done for the sake of sex. Making a villain a nice person so they can have sex with other nice people will produce nice sex. That's fine. But god damn it, it jumps RIGHT over a big fantastic mess of complication and confusion and nastiness and bastardy. Making a villain nice for the sake of nice sex feels, ultimately, like a waste of awesome material.
3. Redeeming the villain lets the good guys win even more thoroughly than just defeating the villain. It's defeating the villain AND anything the villain might ever do in the future. It's a triumph of the good guys' noble ideals over anything the world can bring to bear against them--nobody's that good. Nobody -should- be that good. Total and complete victory is overkill and boring.
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Post by Captain Wee on May 20, 2007 23:25:29 GMT
I abhor stories that are just vehicles for a particular relationship, or worse, have no identifiable conflict in the story. Its just there so the author can say, "Yay my cloti fic is perfect because there is no threat to the relationship at all! Squee!" And you read it, there is no point, you don't feel bad, you don't feel good, you just feel empty. Kinda like what Ronin was saying.
Or the fics that people just have the cast doing random stuff, and they expect to laugh at stuff like "LOL cid cussed LOL" or "yuffie stole ROFL". I mean crack is good, if its executed correctly. . But there's no substance, no real conflict to keep the story moving, except for me punching the computer screen in anger. If i could call this anything, I'd call it meth since its so bad and you feel so Godawful after you're done with it.
And you try to give them criticism and they just say "STFU cloti 4EVA" and they keep writing these vacuous fics for their equally vacuous friends. It just gets to me. They don't try to grow, they don't try to change. Its just "oh i'll write another bland shipper fic that everybody else has written because I don't want to take time to explore the characters"
I haven't written a rant like this for a while. I'm going to go punch babies now.
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Post by Neophyte Ronin on May 21, 2007 2:53:27 GMT
Don't punch babies. Steal their candy... but never punch them. I'm glad you agree.
If you want a conflict or challenge Sephulbadis, make one!
"1. When the villains stop being villains, there goes the motive force of your whole cast of good guys."
...Not necessarily.
Something else can either endanger one's redemption, or a yin-yang thing occurs that screams: "I thought this would be easy!" An example of the latter may be a once-allied villain feeling betrayed by the redeeming one, or a heroic dissenter who belligerently refuses to believe the redemption as genuine.
Take Final Fantasy VIII. Suppose Seifer mellows out, but also takes a stance against Junction Arts, even preaching against them. Yet, he is repeatedly tempted to use Guardian Force Junctions, given his adventures' difficulty. For redeemed villains, the unpleasant attractiveness of evil is at every corner.
If Seifer overcome his addiction to Junction Arts, make Squall into a belligerent Junction addict who lost his mind, memories and--while Seifer might let go--got trapped in their old childhood drama grudge. To confront Squall directly is suicide as the Ace SeeD has powerful Junctions bolstering his strength. Seifer must intelligently devise a means to confront Squall without triggering violence. (This also has him confront his old stance on battles, as he once thrived on them, fearing nothing. Now he has a fear).
If someone switches banners, introduce the means to reclaim oneself, be it temptation or path of redemption. Even heroes can become villains, if villains becoming heroes is so attractive.
"2. It's usually done for the sake of sex."
This one made me laugh outright... because it is true.
I imagine if you have a hostage/prisoner drama with a villain, you can use Stolkholm Syndrome. That's when the hostages and terrorists bond, as they both hope for the goodness in the other's heart (like saying: "they can't be that evil, right?"), and it might come to them ending up on top of each other. That's also called wishful thinking. It can also corrupt the hero/heroine as well.
Most students of Anime thought will vouch for the concept of a sympathetic villain (although Sephiroth, Ultimecia, and Yu Yevon defied that norm). Consider creating an original character, like some ragged punk from Deling City's projects. His gang abducts Rinoa to ransom back to her father. Through force of personality and charming looks, she inadvertently enamors this punk until he gives her a sketchbook filled with her likeness--nude or not--making hostage negotiations difficult.
If even a devious punk can love (and love is the game's theme), then surely he deserves a better fate than what Squall and his SeeDs prefer. So we question both sides' need for violence... something Rinoa wondered about in the game; it stays true to her character.
As for villains being redeemed solely for sex, that is stupid. The "AeriSeph" fics I've read make me vomit. Even if they involve dominance and mind games, it never seems right. Sephiroth is just a fanatic madman. He is also as asexual as H.P. Lovecraft; I can't see it happening.
"3. Redeeming the villain lets the good guys win even more thoroughly than just defeating the villain."
Here's where I go back to the tale of Beowulf back in high school. I remember the teacher asked about whether or not I thought Grendel's fate was too harsh and if I felt sorry. No. I saw a murderous freak get pounded and chased around in a swamp. Read that: murderous freak. Getting pounded and chased around a swamp sounds suitable if it planted such a fate for itself. Whether or not it was correct doesn't matter. It's not about who starts a fight... it's about who ends it.
Today, I gain new insight: no chance anyone could win so thoroughly, even if the villain is completely destroyed. I say let Sephiroth rot to death for all time, and everything that spawned him. After that, someone in Avalanche might go off the deep end, (not Cloud--too predictable).
Suppose Yuffie's pursuit of Materia becomes an all-consuming obsession, and that the taste of power corrupts her mind upon hearing of the death of her father, Godo (when in fact, she mentally blocked out her accidentally slaying him with one of the more unstable Materia). This sends her spiraling onto Wutai's throne with the rage-filled obsession to vindicate herself and her country. She goes to war against Shinra for real, and her old Avalanche friends are tampled in its center.
Even if you have total victory, someone close can betray; the closer they get, the harder it feels. Just take more time to research the chinks in someone's armor, often a trait in the most sadistic of villains, and you can make anything plausible.
You could also make things really fun by introducing the concept of bigger fish to fry. Sephiroth and this Calamity-from-the-Skies stuff isn't exactly all-powerful. However, some literature will have you understand there are things well beyond our comprehension, and that confronting them is a gruesome argument for futility. Quite frankly, making one's quest against evil a never-ending struggle with few if any posititive reinforcers (and plenty of horrific losses, or the potential thereof) is another way of saying "heroes are never bored" while also adding a dimension of horror and macabre delight.
For instance, someone defeats a Great Old One out of Lovecraft's C'Thu'Lu Mythos, single-handedly resisting and mastering the mind-blasting fear of Illithids and Deep Ones, even at a young age. Gods, goddesses, and other such personalities beyond human comprehension take heed, including the ultra-powerful messenger/angel responsible for keeping hell contained (as it is originally a prison for fallen angels, not humans)--the King of Darkness, or Warden of Hell, if you will. He wants this brave warrior to become his personal lethal enforcer upon the mortal plane, to eternally chase down that realm's villainy. The downside: hell appears overcrowded (like, a Great Old One just showed up for crying out loud!), meaning this messenger actually frees a villain here and there into the mortal world, so this mortal child--the Killer of C'Thu'Lu--gets conscripted to hunt them down eternally upon the mortal realm, resulting in a gradual hell on earth (considering the tactics involved in staying ahead of these nefarious wonders of the human mundus). All Creation destabilizes.
So much for absolute ******* victory over C'Thu'Lu, huh?
Nixing a villain completely isn't exactly a bad thing, just so long as there are bigger fish to fry. As long as you can write this stuff as plausibly as possible, you're fine.
I only write pet-peeves for so long until I realize that ranting about them isn't going to get us anywhere. So, to confront Sephulbadis' pet-peeves, I offered alternatives and solutions to keep bad fan-fiction from being written (at least not locally). Thank you and goodnight.
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sephulbadis
Slum Dweller
monkey in a meat hat
Posts: 24
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Post by sephulbadis on May 21, 2007 4:42:01 GMT
It's gracious of you to put so much thought into my peeves, Ronin, but I'm not looking for a debate or refutation of a personal preference. By all means, you can redeem as many villains as you like.
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Post by piedflycatcher on May 21, 2007 9:13:31 GMT
I abhor stories that are just vehicles for a particular relationship, or worse, have no identifiable conflict in the story. Its just there so the author can say, "Yay my cloti fic is perfect because there is no threat to the relationship at all! Squee!" And you read it, there is no point, you don't feel bad, you don't feel good, you just feel empty. Yeah, I agree. There are so many bland romance fics where you could put any character in the two main roles and it would stay the same. I want to see something that explores their relationship in particular, the obstacles they have to get through or just how they deal with day-to-day life. Oh, and Sephulbadis. I'm curious. Have you ever played FFIX?
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Post by Neophyte Ronin on May 21, 2007 10:42:32 GMT
"There are so many bland romance fics where you could put any character in the two main roles and it would stay the same. I want to see something that explores their relationship in particular, the obstacles they have to get through or just how they deal with day-to-day life." www.fanfiction.net/s/2810065/1/Read that one carefully; you don't skim through something that borrows from Hemingway's style. Also, this one is an unusual pairing, and that's cool by itself, but I also like the pairing itself.
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Post by ladyvaltaya on May 21, 2007 11:33:02 GMT
I can't resist saying that I agree Sephibaldus. Redeeming villains just so that one of the good characters can have sex with them is seldom done well in fanfiction.
Personally I'd rather not see it being done at all because in most fics there is no "trial by fire" that the villain has to prove he has really changed.
Another thing that really gets me is when a villain rapes one of the main characters in a story and the writer has the defiled female thinking to herself... "he's not really that bad, I guess I can't really blame him."
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Post by Azul Eyes on May 22, 2007 3:59:21 GMT
Yeah, I can agree with you there. I mean HELLO! They just got raped! It's more likely that someone else is going to comfort them, and those two are gonna fall in love. If someone raped me, I would hate their guts forever, but maybe thats just me...
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