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Post by Sai on Feb 11, 2009 4:15:12 GMT
Perhaps this is odd, but... I looked up my IP address, then Tetra, my sister. They're the same. Then, I looked up my friend's IP address over close to ABQ. The same. Then I looked at my school IP address. The same. Library. Same. It took me about seven or eight computer jumps (all the way to my sister's boyfriend's internet) to get anything different. He uses cable, we don't. So, I am utterly confused about the whole IP address thing. Because, I checked it out and my findings were that IP addresses, depending on size of city, neighboring towns, and internet providers, can be the same. -Sai
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Post by T. Costa on Feb 11, 2009 5:05:31 GMT
Also, they can't help that. If your IP Address is the same as a completely different user's, then that means you have been using your computer to access that other account (i.e. a sockpuppet, most likely). Every computer has a different IP Address. That's not necessarily true. Computers do not have a specific IP address; they are assigned by your ISP and sometimes rotate. Cally and I would have the same IP address and we're on a network. I see it all the time when I look at our IRC chat logs (seeing as I have access to all that jazz). It depends on how your ISP hands out IP addresses. Keep in mind that there's IP addresses and there's MAC addresses. IP addresses differ - often from day to day, depending on how your ISP operates. MAC addresses can be changed, but generally are not. Sai, how were you checking your IP address? Did all of those people use a LAN or a specific internet provider? Was the exact same NUMBER or did it just indicate geographic location? However, just because someone is in the same geographic location does not necessarily mean sockpuppet. I, personally, look for similarities in writing style and slang.
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Post by Woodster on Feb 11, 2009 8:03:16 GMT
Do not get me started on IP addresses. It will just entice a long and unnecessary rant, especially as Tasha has pretty much covered the issue already.
To answer your question, Ren, although I would use them as a starting point for identifying sockpuppet accounts, as far as I'm concerned, they don't constitute as solid proof. I'd be on the look out for writing style, etc, to back up any claim.
Also, guys, your deadline for this thread is tomorrow, 12th February, at 8pm (GMT). (That works out at about 12pm PST, 3pm EST, 4am in Hong Kong, etc...) So if there's anything you want to bring up, now is the time.
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 11, 2009 15:27:02 GMT
IP Addresses:
All computers have a unique IP Address (no argument, that's truth) - Routers have (in a sense, I'll keep it simple) their own "IP" Address - hints why Sai and Ren would see the same one in networks.
A network stings the machines together in that IP Address but the last set will always have the unique IP of that machine.
So yes, if the person managing that sort of thing (Wood or T.Costa) have access that far down the line into IP Addresses, they can see each individual computer. I'm not sure if they have that though.
As far as sock puppets then go, I think Pen is correct - if an account shared the same IP (down to the VERY LAST SET OF NUMBERS) then the account would be using the same computer.
But that doesn't really mean it's the same person in case of siblings sharing one.
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Post by T. Costa on Feb 11, 2009 16:04:48 GMT
All computers have a unique IP Address (no argument, that's truth) - Routers have (in a sense, I'll keep it simple) their own "IP" Address - hints why Sai and Ren would see the same one in networks. No, that's not truth. Your IP can and sometimes does change depending on what your ISP does with IP addresses, and how you manage an internal network. Computers do NOT have a unique IP address. What you're thinking of is a MAC address - a unique to the computer signature. However, these can ALSO be changed. There is no way to identify someone based on their IP address, although you can usually narrow down the geographic location. If you have a court subpoena you can get an ISP's records for who was using that particular IP address at a particular time - but it does change. Now, one can have a "static" IP address, in that they retain the IP for the duration of their stay with that ISP, but for the most part every time you reconnect to your ISP, you're getting a new IP address. This is all information you can check by typing "IP address" into Google, FYI. I just want to reiterate that an IP ban or checking out someone's IP address? Not even CLOSE to final word.
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Feb 11, 2009 16:14:11 GMT
Yeah, it is the truth.
Every last computer on earth has a different IP address.
Static and Dynamic IP addresses only state whether your IP address changes every connection or not. Dynamic does, but ONLY a few digits. Static stays the same throughout.
What IS the same for a lot of computers is your "Default Gateway" to the internet.
On BT, this tends to be:
192.168.x.x
The x can be any number of numbers, but is normally a 0 then one digit between one and 9.
Example:
My IP adress is 86.127.xxx.xxx Where x changes every connection. My brothers is 124.77.xxx.xxx Where x changes every connection. My friend, ALL THE WAY across London, a good 15 miles, has 77.767.xxx.xxx.
All 3 of us show up online as 192.168.1.2
This is your Default Gateway. NOT your IP.
TL;DR
IP address = ALL DIFFERENT.
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 11, 2009 16:25:06 GMT
Thank you, Pirates. I did not google for my information, I actually assist in networking with my mother - who I will back ten million times more then Google (no offense google XD) You are correct T.Costa that static does change - but there is an address that does not change, that is unique to every single machine. Which goes back to me saying that it's not really a matter of checking the IP - but if the admin and yourself have the ability to see the computers unique IP. So you are correct, it shouldn't be the final word. And I'm not trying to challenge your authority or knowledge on the point - you are the tech person of the site, not myself - I am just trying to clear up the IP issue because it caused such a stir before. So please, I still love you and back you a hundred and ten percent. Just wanted to make that very clear.
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Feb 11, 2009 16:32:56 GMT
I got IP banned when I got banned. It took me a whole 4 seconds to get round.
Honest to God. 4 seconds.
It would have taken me another 4 minutes to unlock my banned account.
It would take me... hmm... 20 minutes? To log in as Wood. Think of that. Every 20 minutes, PIRATES COULD BE ADMIN.
Proboards has crap security. We need more stable emasures on the new site.
My expertise in this comes from 4 years tomorrow actually, (HAPPY B-DAY SKILLZ) as a hacker and programmer. Typing IP address into google is like describing every force in the Universe as a push or pull. Correct to a first grader, but idiocy to a second grader.
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 11, 2009 16:37:40 GMT
Yes - but we don't want to upset T.Costa - she could suck our brains out with a cyber straw...
And as interesting of a feeling as that sounds, I'm not really liking the idea.
Pirates, with your twenty minute super power and my ability to turn everything I touch gay - we could control the world!
Which is, yes, why we need these rules hammered out.
IP Bans shoudl be B&ed.
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Post by T. Costa on Feb 11, 2009 17:05:49 GMT
I didn't get my info from Google, I was just saying you COULD. I've been configuring home networks since I was seven years old, and helping my dad do business networks since I was about 12 (FYI, he's the real programmer of the family, not me - I dabble). I have, however, forgotten way more than I ever learned, hence requiring myself to go to college for it next year.
But once again, your computer does not come with an IP address assigned to it, and 20 minutes from now a different computer in your locale could have the IP address you had when you signed on to your ISP (depending on whether you leave it up or not). THAT is what I was trying to make sure gets across in this discussion. I get people telling me - constantly, mind, or else this wouldn't be a huge issue - that every computer has it's own unique IP address that will follow it wherever it goes and THAT'S HOW WE CAN TRACK THE PEDOPHILES. I want to assert that this is not correct.
Also, yeah, not hard to crack proboard's security. *I* could probably get into Woodster's account, or the admin account, if I wanted to, and like I said - I only dabble. This is part of the reason we're trying to move to a different setup, although I am having problems with the board software. I may just fork out for a real piece of software and not a free one. -.-
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Post by Woodster on Feb 11, 2009 17:40:33 GMT
OK, IP addresses, according to my dad (who has been working with computers and such for 20 years): Each modem (which is pretty much saying each computer) has an individual IP address. You can check out what that individual code is on your computer, although don't ask me how. Then each ISP assigns every computer connected to it another IP address, to be used and accessed online. This is the IP address that most people see and what is viewed by proboards. As I can only view the ISP assigned addresses, I have no sure way of identifying sockpuppet accounts. My dad did point out that there are different terms and stuff for these, but I'm an engineer, not a techie. Either way, we shouldn't be arguing over this when I think we're all agreed that the IP's given on proboards will not specify individual computers. And please don't hack my account... I'm rather fond of it! =PGiven that this thread closes in about 26 hours, we still need to discuss a few things. 1. The Editing Policy. So far, the suggestion is that we unless a post is well out of line (threatening, etc), a email be sent to the member involved and they are given 24 hours to rectify it before the mods do so themselves. Of course, this doesn't include double posting. The mods will continue to merge them without sending emails. How does this sound to everybody? Is 24 hours enough time? 2. Northern Crater Rules. Tasha gave a good example on page 1: No actual threatening of people - venting about something is fine, but saying I AM GOING TO COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND MURDER YOU IN YOUR SLEEEP is not cool. NO ILLEGAL STUFF - We WILL cooperate in the event of a subpoena from a higher court. WHAT HAPPENS IN THE PIT STAYS IN THE PIT. If you allow a Pit argument to leak out into the rest of the forums you will be suspended, and if it happens again, you will be banned. But what do you think they should they be? 3. "Appropriate, Polite and Civil"The general agreement so far is that arguments can be attacked, but not the person. However, I'd also like to say that even when attacking the argument, tact should be used. Comments? 4. Moderation PolicyIf a conversation resulted in one, two or even three off topic posts, it was fine. Any more, then I would step in with a gentle nudging back on topic. If the signs showed that it was still off on a tangent, then I'd put my foot down. The problem here is that a lot of it is down to the mod's point of view. You can't truly define what constitutes as off-topic unless you're going to restrict what people are and are not allowed to talk about, and that is not what this forum is about. Obviously, in boards such as Final Fantasy VII and General Final Fantasy, we're going to be a lot stricter about it than we are in The Wine Cellar or even Tifa's Bar. There's been no major qualms with this approach so far. Anyone want to object to this while they can? I'll listen! I think those are the major points still left to discuss... Of course, if you've got anything new to add, then please do!
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Post by T. Costa on Feb 11, 2009 19:13:56 GMT
3. "Appropriate, Polite and Civil"The general agreement so far is that arguments can be attacked, but not the person. However, I'd also like to say that even when attacking the argument, tact should be used. Comments? I have a comment. I feel it's appropriate and okay to call someone out on being unreasonable in an argument, so long as they're tactful about it, especially if it's to end an argument. Obviously if the majority of the board rules against this, I will go along with the rules, but I think that a person's attitude toward an argument can be "attacked," so to speak - but if they're being a jerk we should have the right to call them out on it. Civilly, of course.
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Post by YACCBS on Feb 11, 2009 19:40:50 GMT
(@#%!%, stupid school internets/proboards failing when I try to post stuff).
IMO, we can sit here all year long and try to come to some solid, wonderfully bulletproof definition of what is civil and what is not - but we will fail, 'cause you just can't do that. So I think we need to set a general baseline (that being 'attack the argument, not the person, be tactful', or whatever we end up with after the deadline) and then trust in the mods and any judgement calls they then make.
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Clan Dragoon
SOLDIER Third Class
"Well, since Aerith died, she unofficially got bumped up to 'main heroine' status"
Posts: 639
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Post by Clan Dragoon on Feb 11, 2009 20:00:27 GMT
I agree with YACCBS - a guideline and trust in the mods. They are taking all this time to figure this out, so it's obvious they're looking in our best interests and will not go all Stalin - censorship on the board.
Although when someone claims censorship on a Final Fantasy board I find it somewhat comical.
I have a question though - will all debate threads be moved into a pit board? Or will we simply have an explicit debate and a mod controlled one? I think that would cause favoritism to the pit - I'm not sure if that's a silly question to ask, I've just never been around a Pit before.
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Feb 11, 2009 22:09:23 GMT
That's the very reason I love the idea of a Pit.
It will act like a black hole, because when people get fed up of other people ignoring their arguments in modded threads, the same argument will appear, uncensored, in the Pit.
Which is where I'll be living.
It means I only ever have to read one sub board to understand EVERYTHING going on.
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