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Post by Admin on Jan 16, 2009 15:27:03 GMT
Hello, everyone on the GA forum. It has come to our attention that a few members have expressed concerns about how the forum is run, and there have been complaints of heavy-handed moderating. Particular issues which have been raised include the way we deal with arguments, and our moderation of off-topic posts. With this in mind, we'd like to take this opportunity to clarify our stance on moderation. All moderation is based upon enforcing the forum rules (which were set down by Lily when the forum was first created, and haven't changed since), in order to make the GA forum as pleasant a community as possible. We do our best to remain fair, impartial and civil. Where there is conflict, moderators take steps to resolve it, and prevent its escalation. Of course, by conflict, we don't mean that we prevent disagreement, discussion or debate. We love a good discussion as much as you do. We don't wish to curtail the free expression of ideas which enliven the forum, and we have never tried to do so. But we do have a duty to prevent flame wars, and posts which are rude, offensive, threatening, inflammatory or personally attack other members are not acceptable. When this happens, moderators will ask the members concerned to stop, and if that is ignored, the moderators may remove or modify offensive posts, or give out warnings, or may even have to lock the thread, depending on how out of hand things get. So, while debate is great, we don't think it's too much to ask for common courtesy. With regards to off-topic posts, we're more flexible. If a thread goes off-topic for too long, a moderator will likely step in and remind everyone of the real purpose of the thread. This depends on where the thread is, of course - we're not as lenient with threads in the Final Fantasy board compared to the more relaxed atmosphere of Tifa's Bar, for example. We understand that threads will naturally develop over time and there's nothing wrong with that. What we're concerned with is the deliberate derailment of threads, and with off-topic conversations which have absolutely no relevance to the original topic. Any member who consistently derails threads, or makes a lot of random off-topic posts, will eventually be warned. Now, we understand that some rules may be considered by some of you as partially open to interpretation. Rules are not written in stone, you might say - and you would be right. But in order to be fair, it is necessary that we use the most commonly perceived and accepted interpretation of each and every rule, at all times. We also understand how there might be people who feel upset when we moderate their posts or warn them because of a certain rule. There are two things we'd like to mention at this point. Firstly, our moderating bears no personal grudge against you. Secondly, it's our obligation to take action when needed in order to keep things running smoothly, not a choice. We certainly don't wish to oppress you or strip you of your freedom. But some limits are necessary, in order to make the forum a pleasant and safe community to participate in. That's why there are rules in the first place, after all. We hope that clarifies our moderating procedure. Finally, we have also created this thread as a place where members can discuss matters regarding the running of the forum openly and honestly, as requested. Please make sure that your questions and comments are about moderation procedure only. We will read your complaints without bias and consider all reasonable suggestions. Don't be afraid to post here - we don't bite (unless you bite first ). This is not a thread for members to air any personal grievances they may have with each other, or for members to complain about offensive posts made by other members – if you wish to report such a post, please PM one of us. Please note that the forum rules apply here as much as anywhere else. You are all responsible for the content and wording of your respective posts, so please make sure that they comply with the forum rules. Thank you, Lady Valtaya, Marilena, Pied Flycatcher, and Sylla
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Jan 16, 2009 16:51:37 GMT
This is the most sinister post I've seen since the Soviet Union.
O.o
I feel like I'm being watched, even when I close the laptop.
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Post by fearandloathing on Jan 16, 2009 16:55:18 GMT
*Whoops pirates upside his head for being such an anarchist*
Understood, I'm behind all of you guys on this one.
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Post by MysticSpiritus on Jan 16, 2009 16:57:36 GMT
Personally, I think the mods have been quite fair with the recent debates and whatnot. They've held their posts honorably and I thank them for their hard work.
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Post by Youko-Kokuryuuha on Jan 16, 2009 21:06:17 GMT
Eh? What's this? A problem with the law? Pfft, I don't see what the issue is.
I've seen the mods at work and doing their jobs; it doesn't seem like they've crossed any lines they shouldn't. They've always been polite about corrections and warnings, and their civility is infallible (srsly. I'm not flattering). I honestly don't see what the problem is. :/
Keep up the uber task-force, guys. :3
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Post by La Editor on Jan 16, 2009 22:14:29 GMT
Word. I'm very happy with how the forums are moderated - I'm really glad that the mods care enough to not be afraid to step in. Sure, we don't always need to be dandy-dory, but I'm glad that things are run so that everything stays relatively nice even in disagreements and debates. <3 for the mods! :]
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 16, 2009 23:38:18 GMT
*Hand up* Hi, I'm the first black sheep.
This was so not what we - well, I at least - had a problem with. It's not so much that I had a problem with how things were, or the rules that existed, but it was getting to a suffocating level.
A hand full of threads are active in Tifa's Bar, despite new threads being started, there's still only a handful that people post in everyday. When I first joined, I really loved this place, it was different from other sites I'd previously been on, and still is to an extent. But lately, I only log in here when there's absolutely nothing else to do, mainly because I know the threads that will have new posts ect.
Excuse me for saying so, but this place is dead as of late.
Why, because there's too many rules being enforced all at once in my opinion. I really don't care if I'm the only one to say it at this stage, but I've sat back and watched lately, posting the odd post here and there, but I've watched, too many rules. It's suffocating the place.
But the main thing that hit a chord with me, was how the happiness of just-joined-members was put above that of the existing members, I'll refrain from referring to them as "old members". This really made me stand back and take in the whole picture. I'm not saying that opinions aren't allowed to differ, but if I have the decency to listen to someone else's opinion, and actually consider that maybe their view could possibly be more correct than mine, I at least expect others to return the favour.
What I suggest, which may sound odd to a lot of you, is to have a sub-section, even just a thread alone that was moderating free, if you want to post in it, then post in it, but no moderating. This would either show that we are capable of having mature debates without digressing into insults and flaming arguments, and are not in need of constant suffocating moderation. And if we did lower ourselves to such a level, well then - at least we will have realised that such moderation is in need.
I have absolutely nothing against any of the mods, ye know that yourselves huns, two of them are two very good friends, but I still think it's worth a shot. It would show the mods that we're not in need of such straight-moderation/we are in need of being moderated as we are now.
That's my opinion on it all.
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Post by Mengde on Jan 17, 2009 2:28:49 GMT
Let's face it: some people are stupid assholes who do not deserve common courtesy and don't extend it. The fact that we can't rail at these people and call them all sorts of nasty names is silly. I've been on another set of forums for the better part of seven years, and we're all free to be as assholish and intolerant as we please over there.
And, obviously, it's lasted for seven years and we all love one another even as we disparage one another's posts and call one another out on stupid opinions and behavior.
Society is not self-regulating like this. Stupid people get called stupid. That's the way it ought to be on forums. Enforcing nicety and pleasantness is meaningless because then the civility is forced and means nothing. I am only ever civil to people who deserve it, and who are intelligent enough to reciprocate.
Making us use polite language, I suppose I understand. But dammit, I want to be able to call somebody an idiot and/or dumbass if their behavior merits it without being moderated. This is why I lurk and don't actually post much - because half the content on these boards is gratuitous ass-patting almost nauseating in its insincerity. Turn off the content filters, make a board for the thirteen-and-unders to play in, and let people be as nasty as they please. It will only get better from there.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 17, 2009 2:48:06 GMT
Mengde - I love you right now d'you know that? I agree fully, I'm on at least three or four other sites which seem similar to the one you were a member of for seven years. There's is moderating on them, but warning levels and such are only given when there is a massive breach in the basic rules of the forum, we are not forced to play nice neighbours to everyone else, if somebody does something idiotic, we are free to call them whatever name under the sun they deserve for their action. And while this may seem like a negative place to a lot of people, it's not. I've made a hell of a lot of good friends through these sites and at least I know where I stand with them in regards to what they think of me and my actions.
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piratesrox
SOLDIER Third Class
The use of words expressing more than that of their literal intention! Now that. Is. Irony.
Posts: 712
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Post by piratesrox on Jan 17, 2009 12:07:51 GMT
Let's face it: some people are stupid assholes who do not deserve common courtesy and don't extend it. The fact that we can't rail at these people and call them all sorts of nasty names is silly. I've been on another set of forums for the better part of seven years, and we're all free to be as assholish and intolerant as we please over there. And, obviously, it's lasted for seven years and we all love one another even as we disparage one another's posts and call one another out on stupid opinions and behavior. Society is not self-regulating like this. Stupid people get called stupid. That's the way it ought to be on forums. Enforcing nicety and pleasantness is meaningless because then the civility is forced and means nothing. I am only ever civil to people who deserve it, and who are intelligent enough to reciprocate. Making us use polite language, I suppose I understand. But dammit, I want to be able to call somebody an idiot and/or dumbass if their behavior merits it without being moderated. This is why I lurk and don't actually post much - because half the content on these boards is gratuitous ass-patting almost nauseating in its insincerity. Turn off the content filters, make a board for the thirteen-and-unders to play in, and let people be as nasty as they please. It will only get better from there. I want you. So much. <3
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Post by NRGburst on Jan 18, 2009 4:16:24 GMT
*wades in* Excuse me for saying so, but this place is dead as of late. Why, because there's too many rules being enforced all at once in my opinion. I really don't care if I'm the only one to say it at this stage, but I've sat back and watched lately, posting the odd post here and there, but I've watched, too many rules. It's suffocating the place. I don't know about that. I had a discussion with another member who had concerns about that a little while ago, and I just don't see it. I can count the number of green "mod edit" posts I've seen in my months here on my two hands. I thought all of them were justifiable- all there in the rules when you sign up for an account, right? The number of hits and new members joining seems consistent as well, as far as I can tell. (Anybody have the stats here?) We've never been one of those forums where you get 200 comments on a thread in an hour, and I'm Ok with that- it takes me forever to catch up on the threads I follow as it is. I think some people get bored of GA shortly after joining. Some are "lifers." Most are probably somewhere in between. I know lurkers abound- I know I comment less on threads when my RL gets hectic or when there isn't a thread that really sparks my interest. eg. I'm more likely to lurk in Chit Chat than on the Abortion thread. But the main thing that hit a chord with me, was how the happiness of just-joined-members was put above that of the existing members, I'll refrain from referring to them as "old members". This really made me stand back and take in the whole picture. I'm not saying that opinions aren't allowed to differ, but if I have the decency to listen to someone else's opinion, and actually consider that maybe their view could possibly be more correct than mine, I at least expect others to return the favour. So seniority means your happiness matters more? I don't really get what seniority in the forum has to do with debate. While it's frustrating when people just WON'T see your side of the issue, people are just like that. e.g. Religion. I don't think the mods were trying to make new members happy at all- I think they were trying to keep the (aptly named) Shipping Wars thread on topic and member posts within the rules. (I'm guessing this is the Shipping Wars thread being debated about, but correct me if I'm wrong.) What I suggest, which may sound odd to a lot of you, is to have a sub-section, even just a thread alone that was moderating free, if you want to post in it, then post in it, but no moderating. This would either show that we are capable of having mature debates without digressing into insults and flaming arguments, and are not in need of constant suffocating moderation. And if we did lower ourselves to such a level, well then - at least we will have realised that such moderation is in need. Well, that isn't the forum I joined. I actually joined GA because it wasn't full of the flame-war garbage that happens in others. I want to talk about writing. Good fanfiction. Somebody's awesome fanart. Not sift through pages of slagging and insults. There are other venues for this- I use msn if I just HAVE to say that I think somebody is being a jerk. I think it's crass to put it on a public forum. The fact that we can't rail at these people and call them all sorts of nasty names is silly. Society is not self-regulating like this. Stupid people get called stupid. That's the way it ought to be on forums. Enforcing nicety and pleasantness is meaningless because then the civility is forced and means nothing. I am only ever civil to people who deserve it, and who are intelligent enough to reciprocate. Making us use polite language, I suppose I understand. But dammit, I want to be able to call somebody an idiot and/or dumbass if their behavior merits it without being moderated. This is why I lurk and don't actually post much - because half the content on these boards is gratuitous ass-patting almost nauseating in its insincerity. Turn off the content filters, make a board for the thirteen-and-unders to play in, and let people be as nasty as they please. It will only get better from there. If agreeing with somebody's opinion makes you insincere, the last two posts are rather ironic. I think there are codes of conduct and manners in every society. Isn't that self-regulating? There are mods in a lot of the forums I've seen, so it's hardly a new and unexpected thing. Watching people snipe at each other in public is uncomfortable for me. So I prefer a modded comm here. I think it hasn't interfered with the debate, while pages of flame spam most certainly do. Just my opinion.
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Post by Pen Against Sword on Jan 18, 2009 15:21:20 GMT
This is my opinion, not really intending to disagree or agree with any particular member.
On the issue of seniority: I don't think older members should be held in higher regard than new members. That is to say that I don't think mods should be iron-fisted with the rules for new members and all flexible with the rules for older members just because they've known them longer and they have "seniority." People don't get "seniority" on a forum. Having a higher post count does not make you better. Being here longer and knowing the members for longer does not give you special rights. Everyone is equal under the law. That's just how I feel about it.
On the subject of how we should be allowed to express ourselves: I think it's a fine line, so let me do my best to articulate myself well here.
I don't necessarily think we should be allowed to degenerate into screaming obscenities at each other, but I also don't think we shouldn't be allowed to call someone out. And by that I mean that if someone is debating, and he/she is being bullheaded (as in refusing to even acknowledge that the opposing party may have a point) or condescending getting heated, I don't want to have to go whining to the mods about how I'm being flamed. Let me fight back! I think we should be allowed to say, "Hey, can you be less condescending?" without getting our posts cut out for flaming. We should be allowed to say, "You are intolerant of other people's opinions, and I can't believe I ever even started discussing with you because you obviously just came here to argue until you drop dead from lack of oxygen." How is that flaming? I don't understand why that deserves to be erased completely, and I think that kind of censure is just ham-fisted and unnecessary.
One of the reasons that is most frustrating is that basically, as posters at the lowest level on this forum (meaning nothing negative, just that we have no administrative powers), many times we all have an opinion we want to voice (and yes, this has happened more than once), but we're not sure how to do it in a way that won't get modded because of the sometimes strange interpretations of what is "flaming" around here.
No, I don't want to read pages and pages of people throwing insults at each other, but I also don't want to read pages of people arguing with some immovable tool, unable to just come out and say, "Hey, why are you here if you're just going to be condescending and treat everyone like they're idiots?" That's not flaming. Flaming is, "YOUR OPINION IS SH*T AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY YOU CAME HERE YOU FAT ASTHMATIC WHALE."
There really is a difference.
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Post by marilena on Jan 18, 2009 15:45:26 GMT
You don't get your posts cut out for flaming because of that. If you read through the pages in the relevant thread again, you will see that there were people who pointed out something like that, and they didn't get moderated for flaming.
When you attack the argument, not the person, anything is fine. When you have to go against the person itself, there is, indeed, a fine line between what is civil and what is not. Calmly asking a member to be less condescending because everyone is entitled to their own opinion does not a flame make, and you have never been moderated for it.
Calling them an idiot, however, is different.
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Post by Pen Against Sword on Jan 18, 2009 15:59:26 GMT
That may well be, but I also think my definition of what is too harsh and what is not are different than most everyone else's. Some of the posts that have been cut out or moderated for "flaming" -- well, I didn't see the harm in them, and that was the kind of stuff I was talking about when I said:
I don't think that's a matter of being personally insulting. That's just calling someone out.
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Post by piedflycatcher on Jan 18, 2009 17:06:15 GMT
"Hey, can you be less condescending?" "You are intolerant of other people's opinions, and I can't believe I ever even started discussing with you because you obviously just came here to argue until you drop dead from lack of oxygen." "YOUR OPINION IS SH*T AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY YOU CAME HERE YOU FAT ASTHMATIC WHALE." There really is a difference. *nods* You're very right to point this out, Pen. It's the way posts are expressed which is important. Taking your quotes one by one, the first is probably okay, the second is closer to the borderline, and the third is an obvious flame. The second is borderline because of its tone. It's hard to say definitely with made-up examples, because they lack context, but I don't see the need for the 'drop dead' comment. It's the kind of thing which could easily provoke a snarky response, and then you get a back and forth of increasingly insulting sarcastic comments etc and the whole thing just becomes tiresome. So while we wouldn't do anything about a single borderline comment, we do ask people to calm down as arguments become increasingly heated. As we explained in the first post, it's our job to prevent flame wars, and it's not hard to see when a thread is heading that way. We don't remove comments unless we feel they have gone too far. That may well be, but I also think my definition of what is too harsh and what is not are different than most everyone else's. Well, as we said in the first post, we go with the most common interpretation of what is acceptable and what is not.
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