Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 21, 2009 2:14:02 GMT
See now - Sai's posts being cut REALLY p****d me off! She is a judge - and forgive me now for saying this those of you who may hold it against me seems I'm not a judge - but what a total and blatent over-rule of her authority as a staff member! How much more contradicting can moderation become if a staff member does such to another staff member without first consulting the mod who posted - it's just so stupid and impossibly contradictory I don't know whether to laugh or cry. edit: Thank you Vulcan Seriously though, there have be an arse and cart load of complaints, but it seems now that we have the opportunity to voice them - they've disappeared
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Post by Youko-Kokuryuuha on Jan 21, 2009 2:14:51 GMT
In response to Vulcan's earlier post about missing post-chopping: apparently so.
I'm a bit surprised that there's an issue at all, because I never noticed any of these "forced niceties" that seem to be so problematic. From what I gather—and correct me if I'm wrong—a good majority of the discontent was sparked by happenings and disputes within the Shipping Wars thread, a thread that I've noticed but never actually entered. If that were the case, then I would count my knowledge of the dissension as negligible.
Of course, I've seen a few snarky post here and there around the forum, but I've never noticed anything being cut. If you guys feel like you're being forced to spout pleasantries through gritted teeth, then, by all means, pursue the issue. I'm simply making it known that I hadn't realized there was an issue to pursue.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 21, 2009 2:42:40 GMT
The discontent has been around with a while hun, the happenings in the Shipping Wars thread just kind of made it all bubble over.
My posts that were cut-out/deleted happened a few months ago now, so you wouldn't find where they were unless you really went digging.
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Post by Sai on Jan 21, 2009 2:47:30 GMT
My posts were cut, as well.
I, for one, am supposed to be one of the 'model' members, as I am a moderator. I love being a moderator, and I love being part of this forum. But, most importantly, I love the people here, for the most part.
I talk to everyone; I find that the most rewarding experience about being a moderator. I hear peoples' complaints, I try to help them in any way I can. If I can't help, I go to the Admins, who I then try to coax to see my point of view. It doesn't always work, but I try the hardest I can.
Does that make me perfect? Hardly. I can lose my cool, and sometimes I get short with people. It's natural, it's human, and by god-- it's the only way people are going to realize that being nice solely because you fear a moderator is going to flip isn't always the truth. I certainly don't mind if you call someone out for doing something (Head in the sand, troll, rudeness, etc.) I have called people out for it, as well, and have been equally silenced.
So, not all moderators agree with this 'Nicety' posts. But, what I find to be the hypocrisy with 'Nicety' posts is that not even the /admins/ follow it.
Pied, I have watched you snip and growl, and flat out threaten members with points, locking posts, bans, for things that /hardly/ deserve to be. I have seen you, Mari, not even two weeks ago, bear your teeth and bring down the 'threat' hammer. When someone does something that displeases you, you bring it out with anger, by post cuts, by subtle, or sometimes not so subtle, threats. And yet, if anyone else was to take so much as a step to express their own opinion with dislike or anything marginally insulting, they are thrust into a corner and told that they can't come out until they play nice. And yet, they is no check to see if one of the admins or moderators (though I have yet to see a moderator take a step over what they should and should not be doing) are complying with their own rules.
Perhaps what I was most insulted in is that I witnessed, first hand, your ignorance to moderators' 'angry' posts and only acknowledge those who were not staff.
By my first hand experience, I mean the cutting of my post. And, subsequently, no 'warning' or 'little green message' at the end of my post. You did so with Vulcan, and yet mine was far more 'attacking' if you dare call it that, and it was not acknowledged. Why? I don't have a reason. Perhaps that should be explained to me.
Was it the fact that I said the new members were acting like trolls, baiting members? Or the fact that I mentioned that they were giving me more of a headache than Pirates did? Or maybe, just maybe, it had to do with the fact that I said what every member who came to me said: I didn't want any further part of the thread when it was being hounded by self-serving, 'can't listen to any other persons' opinion, let alone check their facts, or acknowledge when their facts were wrong' members. And, I remember that I wasn't even that blunt.
I don't see how that counts as insulting. Barbed, perhaps. Blunt--sure.
Insulting and demeaning? No.
If I had turned around and said "I think you're a stupid fa----t and need to learn other peoples' opinions. Go f--- off somewhere else, because none of us like you. Take your trollish ways and let all of us members kick your ugly a-- on the way out" then I deserved to be silenced.
And, because that /didn't/ happen, I cannot comprehend why exactly I was 'modded'. Let alone why it wasn't even /mentioned/ to me, and I had to figure it out when another member had to physically point it out to me.
I know I'm not supposed to be in this thread. I am aware that this may cause trouble, but I am to the point that I can not in good conscious continue to keep silent. I like modding, and I don't want to give it up, but I think others need to chill out, take a breather, and hold themselves to their own rules, and take a look at what insulting means. What is commonly seen as rude by you guys isn't what everyone else sees. Telling someone their posts are egotistical is different than turning around, calling them 'fa----s', 'c----', 'd---', etc are two totally seperate things.
Writers should already have a backbone and thick skin. If you whine about someone telling you your post is egotistical, I can't even understand why we continue the forum. First rule of writing: grow some balls, take it like a man, and learn. Calling a fact an insult makes no sense to me. I'm sure it doesn't to anyone else, either.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 21, 2009 3:04:59 GMT
If Sai gets in trouble for that - I swear to God I'm leaving this forum - because it would be nothing more than a dump. Another thing - what bright spark came up with the idea that mods weren't supposed to be in this thread? It has to to moderating, it says so in the title - or is that another form of shipping/canon argument? Mods should post here, and not be told or "advised" not to. Another examply of how contradictory things have become. I said something a little while ago, not too long ago actually, and just because I had queried something a mod had said I think it got totally out of hand, I had only done so because I thought it was a gross over reaction on something that had been on topic. Sai - everything you've said there is relevant and you have the right to say it. It's on topic, and you're a member of this site like anyone else, so you should be entitled to your say. And why are some staff members allowed to post here while others don't? Which goes back to your point of the rules applying to everyone. If you get in trouble over posting here - then every other staff member should too - at least make the selective modding apply to all of you. So Sai - Stay here in this thread And I said it before to you hun, blunt is not insulting - it just gets the message across twice as fast as carefully picked words and constructed sentances. Remember the massive debate that was started in the Flame/Concrit thread there a while ago? The main theme was to do with writers being able to take constructive criticism and not go crying flame at nothing, being capable of telling the difference between a flame and a constructive comment - this is the same thing. So what's the difference, just because we're saying it directly to the person in front of others? If you wish to become a writer - well then there's gonna be way more than 365 people seeing your work, and I'm pretty damn sure they're not going to spend their time thinking of ways to say "you're wrong" "you suck" "it's irrelevant" "you give me a migraine with your stupidity" in a nice polite way that actually defeats the whole purpose of saying it in the first place.
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Post by La Editor on Jan 21, 2009 3:33:55 GMT
So, all you people who say that things are fine, are you just missing the fact that moderators have been chopping posts simply because they were unkind? I was actually surprised at this. I honestly stopped watching the Shipping Wars thread and haven't heard of it otherwise: apologies for that, because like Koky I didn't really pay attention to the issues at hand. I had no idea posts were actually being cut, and I should have educated myself on the issue before posting. After actually looking through that thread, I think I know a bit more about what everyone is actually talking about. I think I'll try to understand the situation more first before fleshing out my own opinion. However, I will say that the problem - generally, the extent of moderation on the entire forum - has been pinpointed. So... what's the fix?
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Post by NRGburst on Jan 21, 2009 7:58:33 GMT
Holy thread explosion.
I can see where you're coming from, Vulcan and Sai. If I was going to get my posts cut without direct warning, I might cry "censorship!" as well. I was actually only aware of the "ostrich" modded post- Ren, were any of your posts actually altered, or were you just warned for being off topic? (Because you were, you know... it had nothing to do with member "happiness.") From what I could see when I looked back at the thread, it looked like the mods had done what they said: warn first, then start removing the rule-breaking parts. However, I think a direct warning before any modding of posts is what people expected.
I (personally) think this may be a good time to change that part of the modding procedure. Also, I know there are four execs, and while you guys may discuss modding decisions amongst yourselves on msn, I think people would feel more comfortable if that process was more transparent. This also gives people all the facts before they start pointing fingers at the mods. I think that Pied is being unfairly vilified here, and having only her name in admin black is turning this thread into more of a stoning than a discussion.
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Renolvr
SOLDIER First Class
I've decided that some things are worth the pain.
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Renolvr on Jan 21, 2009 8:12:47 GMT
My posts were in the wine cellar, a thread that had cookies in the title of it I think. It wasn't off topic, partially because I don't think there was much of a "point" to the thread, I'd been discussing the welfare of a sick child with another member, when asked if it had a point. I responded with it being the wine cellar, and that I was actually breaking no rules. Then I got told the thread had only been created in order to make a point against Admin/Mod, it was more kind of a "HI, I'm back" thing, I'd just got back after my two week ban. With the majority of my posts in it, they were quoted back to me and accused of not having a point, told to take stuff to pms ect. For a start, I don't react to being told to take matters to pms when I've actually done nothing wrong - or is it someone thinks that I may possibly say something wrong. Either way, I lost my cool, and depending on your view of the subject, I could have very easily been in the wrong. And I shall accept that. However, what I am not willing to accept is being questioned in a thread by a Mod repetitively when the mod is the only person bringing the point back up, and then getting a pm telling me such-and-such-a posts have been cut and I think the thread was locked too, though that last part I may be wrong I'm not sure.
Let me point out, I have no problem being questioned in a thread by a Mod, so long as they accept my explanation ect on the matter, not simply saying their interpretation of what I said and finding continual faults in what I say. Also, if they keep bringing the subject up regardless or not if that thread has moved on from such as subject - if so, then PM me about it. Don't keep dragging it up in a thread that's on about something else, it looks to be off-topic.
And agree, I received a warning for being "hostile" towards the mod after I lost my cool - fine, I'd rather not have gotten it, but I did and can't do much about it at this moment in time. And truth be told, I'd probably deserved it, what I didn't deserve was receiving no pms regarding what was said in the thread, and that my stuff was going to be cut. I received on afterwards though to tell me it had been cut. Leaving me looking like an idiot who got a warning over nothing seems my words had been taken from me.
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Post by NRGburst on Jan 21, 2009 8:25:42 GMT
I was around at the time and I remember that thread and its contents. I think it was titled "Where's my cookies, huns???" I was actually referring to the "Shipping Wars" thread in my earlier post.
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Post by Jeanneandheralters on Jan 21, 2009 11:04:52 GMT
Now, as one who doesn't follow the Shipping Wars thread, I'll still say the modding is a bit.... well... strict? I suppose. I clicked on the Shipping Wars thread once but got bored within a post.
I know I, myself, have not had to have any warnings recently (since I stick to the rules like glue) but merely because the modding is so strict. Since two out of three of my warnings were fairly earned that I know of.
I couldn't even check the third one because lo-and-behold! It'd been deleted. Gone. Nonexistent. LESS existence than a Nobody's heart. How am I supposed to stick to the rules if I can not even go back to see what you, the mods, thought was off-topic or some such thing?
I'm not saying I'm completely unhappy with the modding but the steps you take are a bit drastic for mediocre stuff. Cutting posts, deleting words, warnings were a simple reminder would have done better. Warning/Banning were it's not needed to get the person back on topic breeds discord if you will. People aren't pleased when they get that slapped on them.
Other than that, I'm good on the modding. Heavy-handed as it is.....
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Post by marilena on Jan 21, 2009 11:17:54 GMT
Uh, Sai and Ren, which part exactly of the original post leads to the conclusion that mods aren't allowed to post here? I'd like to see it, if you don't mind. Or is it being hinted that we have been terrorizing you on msn so that you don't speak your mind?
@ren: Moderators in blue (or lilac when they're judges as well) are not staff members. Their job is to help the admins, which are the only official staff members of the forum. That's why we can't be held accountable for their posts, and also why they get moderated when they need moderating.
About your cookies thread: We were trying to be discreet about the reasons behind your ban, which is why we didn't want to come forth with any embarassing evidence when you hinted at your unfair banning in your original posts. It was becoming increasingly difficult, however, while you became increasinly aggressive. It was either laying down all the evidence we had, which, as I already said, would have been embarassing for you, or moderating your posts and locking the thread.
@ Sai: Since you seem to be so keen on distorting and bringing up personal conversations, I'm not sure I understand what exactly you mean by "I have seen you, Mari, not even two weeks ago, bear your teeth and bring down the 'threat' hammer." If you are referring to the day when everyone started blaming me as part of the administration and I had to moderate a certain post, then yes, I was frustrated and angry and sad, and I stood firm by my opinion, which I still do not regret. I spoke to you and told you my thoughts and worries, because I was hoping that talking to a friend might help. Apparently, I should have known that because of this war against the admins, I'm just an admin, not Marilena, a person who could possibly want to talk to someone without making a public statement out of it. I'll be more careful about it in the future.
I should probably mention at this point that, hard though it may be for some of you to imagine, this post has nothing to do with the admins. It's only my personal opinion.
On topic, I feel as though you guys have taken a magnifying glass and used it to continually stare at the same spot until it burst in flames. If we were to treat each of your modified posts and other actions the same way, many of them would end up in flames too.
Most of you think that Pied is the evil dictator and we're her lackeys. Let me ask you - have you seen many of our decision making procedures? I don't think so. Please don't act like you know what happens behind closed doors, because you will most likely be wrong.
Pied has always tried to make this as democratic as possible. She doesn't order us - we vote. Yes, that's right. We vote, and everyone's vote is of equal importance. Even when we don't vote, we discuss things. Shocking, I know. However, not all of our admin activity has been decided upon beforehand. Sometimes, only one of us is online and something has to be done soon, so the staff member in question moderates first and checks in with the rest of the admins later.
This is not to say that mistakes don't happen. That would have been absurd. I just wanted to address a few (irrelevant) points, clarify that Pied isn't the black sheep here, and say, in conclusion, that I believe you're exaggerating and stretching into oblivion and back any mishap there might have been, while completely forgetting or disregarding all the hard work we've put into this forum.
No, that wasn't a subtle emotional plea. I don't do emotional pleas. It was a statement.
I'll say again that this post isn't necessarily the administration's stance on the matter. If you want to open fire at someone, that would be me.
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Post by Jeanneandheralters on Jan 21, 2009 11:31:35 GMT
Why hallo thar Mari!
I don't think most of us were saying it's all Pied's fault. Maybe it was said in one or two posts but unless my memory is that bad... well let's just say I hope it's not! Now I'm not above saying there've been times I've not been pleased with the mods. Mainly when I got warned.
Now, of course I avoided being a complete idiot at the moments were I got warned and instead I didn't post at all or avoided the particular subject that annoyed me ever-so-much. Short attention span I have, stupid I am not. Though I just realized my laptop wasn't plugged in >.<
As for opening fire on you Mari, why would I ever wish to do that? I'd feel sorry for all the little robotic babies that could come into existence if your continued living, and consequently good health, were not maintained!
As above though, I'm relatively good on the modding but there are points were I do get annoyed.
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Post by MysticSpiritus on Jan 21, 2009 12:48:04 GMT
Frankly, I'm still not quite sure what the issue is. As a lurker, I noticed how nasty the Shipping Wars were getting and I saw the mods do their job. Those that didn't follow the rules simply got reprimanded. So, I still do not see where the dilemma lies. It sounds like all the admin/mods want is politeness, which I don't think is asking too much. Remember the law of Thumper: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So, there's my humble little two cents.
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Post by La Editor on Jan 21, 2009 12:57:46 GMT
Apparently, I should have known that because of this *FIXED* healthy discussion (there, now don't you feel silly?), I'm just an admin, not Marilena, a person who could possibly want to talk to someone without making a public statement out of it. I'll be more careful about it in the future. I know I shouldn't be addressing this directly, because I know it has nothing to do with me and I apologize for that, but I do know that Sai didn't mean it like that, Mari. It isn't that people aren't appreciative of the mods. You guys do work really hard for us, and I think everyone here is forever grateful for that. Without the mods, there would be no GA, and the people are on this topic because we care about the GA. However, like any system, there are bound to be a few kinks. I believe people are just trying to point out the problems they've seen and encountered; they aren't trying to pin or blame anyone, but they want to point it out because this is the place to do it.
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Post by marilena on Jan 21, 2009 13:18:53 GMT
Why would I feel silly? It's not a healthy discussion per se - so what you're saying is that I should have contacted the admins instead of saying it or my post would get edited? That's an excellent plan. It's exactly what we're trying to say. And I would have contacted an admin, if, you know, I wasn't one. When the offended person is an admin, there isn't really a point to contacting an admin, is there?
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